Nothing personal Guideboatguy
I just think that the Yellowstone Solo gets called out for special criticism because at one time it had the same name as it’s more respected composite cousin. That criticism is rooted in the old days when composite Wildfire owners would debate with RX Wildfire owners on the merits of the various boats. No doubt about it – they two very different boats that shouldn’t be compared against each other.
As respects the differential rocker, the SRT has the same rocker as the Yellowstone Solo – 2.5 / 1.5. Would you say that detracts from its overall capability? Probably not since it was designed a riverrunner. I just went down and looked, and I didn’t see that the shape of the stern of my Yellowstone Solo is anymore “skegged” that any of my other boats.
At the end of the day, I think the Yellowstone Solo compares fine with any of the other 14 foot RX riverrunners. I’ve taken if from lakes to class II rivers and never had an issue. You may prefer a different boat, and that is fine, but that doesn’t make this boat less capable.
All good points
To me, it was never a matter of whether some boats tracked harder or looser, or that some boats have similar tracking and are billed as river runners. To me, it seemed that the nature of the stern was not quite consistent with that of the rest of the boat. It doesn't mean that it can't be considered a decent river runner, and it doesn't even mean that I wouldn't enjoy owning one, because I know that I would. It's a fairly playful boat, but one that I personally think would be "funner" if both ends had a more similar degree of freedom. Anyway, if I were more of a boat collector than I am, I'd definitely want to have one.
As to the distinctive shape of the stern, well, it really stands out to my eye. The first time I noticed it was when looking at various hulls perched on display racks at our local local paddling shop. The boats were rightside-up, but tilted, and when viewed obliquely from the front and from slightly below, the keel line of the stern was unusually prominent. Because the hull to the sides of the keel line immediately ahead of that zone was starting to "tuck up" out of sight when viewed from that direction, it gave the impression that the tail end of the keel line had actually reversed its curvature to become more prominent (that reverse curvature is what creates the flattened profile at the tail end that I referred to before). I then found that I could immediately recognize this boat at a glance just by seeing the rearmost two feet of the keel line - it works every time. I've never seen that optical effect on any other canoe, and I find it to be extremely distinctive. However, I tend to see details like that - I can't help it :)
For the OP, I’ll add this too:
Having paddled both the Odyssey 14 (a lot) and the Royalex Wildfire/Yellowstone solo (a little), I would say that the Wildfire/Yellowstone solo “feels” like a smaller boat. Therefore, if the original poster were deciding between those two boats, the Wildfire/Yellowstone Solo might well be a better choice, and if not a better choice, it certainly would not be worse. In other words, I sure wouldn’t discourage him from getting one if he got the chance.
I agree with you there
The Yellowstone Solo does look and feel narrow. That’s one reason that many beginner paddlers don’t like it. It also has very little flair at the ends so it tends to be a submarine in waves. That may also contribute to that unique stern profile that you see.
Anyway, I’m done - sorry for the diversion, and sorry to pick on your post Guideboatguy. Thanks for being a good sport about it.
My final comment
There’s no need to apologize. In fact, for the sake of the original poster, I think it’s a good thing you brought up the topic, because the Royalex Wildfire really is a nice boat, and I wouldn’t have wanted anyone to think I had intended to say otherwise. These diversions often have as much merit as the main topic, and I think that was certainly the case this time.
tracking
often beginners are happier with a stronger tracking boat to begin with till they perfect their stroke. My first solo was a bell merlin II and at first I even had trouble making that go straight.
Turtle
Speaking of differential rocker…
Does the Odyssey have a skegged stern? I’m imagining I’d prefer it this early in the game…
What about the Solo 13? Symmetrical or differential rocker? And how much less than the Odyssey’s supposed 1.75?
Answers to some of that stuff
Both the Odyssey 14 and Solo 13 are completely symmetrical, above and below the waterline. So there’s no skegged stern in either boat.
Personally, I don’t think you need to think of differential rocker or a skegged stern as being easier to learn on than symmetrical rocker. I think any person who is willing to develop a proper stroke will do fine in either case. The Odyssey 14 is commonly thought of as reasonably maneuverable, but it’s a long way from being “squirrely”. Of greater importance will be for you to feel like the boat fits you.
Maybe someone else can answer your question on how much rocker the Solo 13 has (or for that matter, whether that 1.75-inch figure for the Odyssey 14 is correct). What the Mohawk website makes fairly clear is what part of the keel line is rockered and what part is not. On the Solo 14 the rocker starts 39 inches away from the centerpoint, and since the Solo 13 and 14 have so many identical dimensions, I suspect that the same figure applies to the Solo 13. On the Odyssey 14, the rocker starts just 18 inches away from the centerpoint. This means that the rocker on the Odyssey 14 occupies a far larger portion of the overall length of the boat. I’d normally expect this to mean that the Odyssey tracks a little more loosely and turns a little easier than the Solo 14, and that’s what I’ve heard to be the case (not counting what either boat can do when tilted to one side). In comparing the Solo 13 to the Odyssey 14, it could be that the the shorter length would tend to minimize that kind of difference. I wish I could give you a real answer, but I’ve never paddled either of the Solo models.
Bell Rockstar…
Whatever everyone else said,… Check that one out on the classifides…you can trip in that boat… might be big for day trips but you won’t beat that price and it’s in your state. I’ve been a feeder for the Au Sable Marathon multiple times and would jump on that boat if I were you…
…
The Rockstar isn’t really in my price range. Seems more sensible to buy something cheap to begin with, and in the process of learning to paddle solo, figure out what characteristics I really want in a boat, at which point I’ll surely be able to justify a more serious purchase.
I have to confess that after reading through a few threads concerning rocker, I find myself a little confused on the subject. At first I thought it was as simple as more rocker = greater maneuverability, but at the expense of tracking AND speed. Then I read a couple of things (one of which penned by Mr. Charlie Wilson) suggesting that rocker, by virtue of reducing wetted surface (if I understand correctly) actually makes for a FASTER boat…
Then there’s the idea that in the hands of an experienced single blade paddler, a skegged stern is entirely unnecessary, even in applications that might otherwise seem to benefit from which.
Ultimately, none of this stuff has too great a practical impact on what I end up with. The fact is, I just need to get a cheap boat and start learning. You guys could each write entire dissertations on the aforementioned subjects, and it still wouldn’t really be worth that much of a damn until I went out and experienced it for myself.
I do wish I could find a secondhand Yellowstone for a reasonable sum; the width is clearly more ideal for a person my size.
I just hope if I end up with the Odyssey, it isn’t so wide for me as to be unmanageable.
Any Boat is Better than No Boat
I have both a Yellowstone Solo and a Dagger Impulse. These are completely different boats designed for completely different purposes, and yet, I can have so much fun in either when on Class I or II water. Any boat is better than no boat. I’m sure you’ll do just fine in any 13-14 foot canoe that is not designed specifically for whitewater (as long as it’s no wider than 30 inches.)
Solos…
Just some personal stuff…I’m 5’6" and now 160 lbs. I paddle a Bell Magic, Wildfire, Wenonah Prism, Hemlock Kestral, and a Mohawk Solo 13 among other paddlecraft… The longer boats are for camping out of and the shorter ones are more for day tripping. I’m paddling the Vermillion River race tommorrow morning in the Solo 13(47’th annual race)… You’d be surprised how you can adapt to a boat…Again, that Rockstar is in your sights…/…
of what’s avail. tonight…that Rockstar
, a Mohawk Solo 14(or 13) or that Penobscot_15 would work for you.
You might have a better idea what you like when you get into a canoe after renting and getting started on the right track, and maybe a lesson, if possible...but do constantly check out DVDs(Bill Mason's or other good paddlers)/YouTubes...etc.
Length and rocker
When looking at maneuverability and tracking, you need to consider boat length in addition to rocker. I’m sure Charlie Wilson could teach a physics class on this topic, but to my simple mind there is a spectrum of boats with whitewater boats at one end and lake boats at the other. Whitewater boats tend to be short and highly rockered which allows tight turns and even flat spins. Lake boats tend to be long with minimal rocker which allows straight tracking with a minimum of correction. In the middle are “river touring” boats which tend to be in the 13 to 15 foot range with rocker from .5 to 2.5 inches. The combination of length and rocker determine where a boat falls on the spectrum between maneuverability and tracking.
As you can see from this discussion, there is no one boat that does it all, which is why many paddlers have different boats for different conditions. Good paddling technique also allows a paddler to improve the performance of the boat. If you haven’t seen it already, check out the Functional Freestyle tread:
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1756729
Speed is an entirely different issue. I know longer is generally faster, but it is not something that I worry about too much.
CEW does
but you gotta start somewhere. I am old school, pre Internet overanalysizing…
Honestly in the day of incomplete information overload its a wonder anyone can make a decision. By incomplete I see nothing in the way of hull shape information ever given… The cross section profile of a boat at various stations.
Another important consideration
but most of the boats we are talking about here are shallow arch aren’t they? River boats will have more flair, lake boats less. Maybe I am just oversimplifying again.
(Off to paddle - windy and cold, but the rivers around here are are opening up)
Boats and people
are adaptable. Do not worry about the Odyssey being too wide. It probably is, but you overcome that by heeling it a bit to the paddling side. This is how people solo tandem boats. It is not ideal, as it distorts the boats “footprint”, but it works and has been done for years.
Peter
I’m definitely more situated
in the minimalist camp, gear-wise, and make a point of being a non-gearhead. Analysis is helpful to a point, but soon on the returns become too small to justify the energy expense.
Using things in contexts other than for what they were designed (within reason) is an art unto itself.
Check out the Slipper in Ft. Wayne?
On that note:
I've found this whole discussion to be interesting (no kidding huh? I've posted enough times), but hearing about your no-nonsense attitude toward your gear makes me think you couldn't go wrong if you were to jump on that Odyssey 14 (pay ahead of time to stake your claim if you have to, while reserving the right to take your money back at the time of the visit if there's something seriously wrong with the boat that you didn't know about). The price is very good, it looks to be in good condition, and aside from being a tiny bit larger than what might be ideal for you, it's a very good compromise between the various uses you have in mind. Of course there are other models which would be a good compromise too, but this one is available right now and it's cheap, and you are already scheduled to visit the location. You could spend the whole summer looking for a better fit, but you'd probably pay more for it and the location might be less convenient. And what cost do you assign to the loss in paddling time while you are searching?
Finally, don't assume that this is the last boat you will ever own. Whatever you decide, I'm sure some of us will be interested in knowing how it turns out for you.
Oh, and I'll add a comment about that Rockstar. There's a point where boats do become too big, even if the boundary is not a sharply defined one. That boat was specifically designed for a big paddler with a lot of gear. At that boat's size, for a smaller paddler, it provides virtually no advantage over solo-paddling a tandem canoe, which of course negates the whole point of owning a solo canoe in the first place. I bet that the people recommending that boat weigh close to twice as much as you do.