Sounds Like a Trip
Mark, that sounds like a super excuse to come down to the Coastal Bend. I need to get down there for family reasons anyway. I’ll be in touch when I’m heading that way and maybe I could meet you at Port Aransas or Rockport. Thanks mucho.
All Feedback Helpful
One of the great things about p.net is the wealth of opinions and experience people are willing to share. I’ve been around canoes and people long enough to sift through what seems most relavent and helpful to me. But really all of it is appreciated. I like to think I’m a good canoe hand with lots of boat experience, but some of the regulars here amaze me. I may not always agree, or take an opinion as the gospel, but I’m always trying to listen and learn.
Finding One
Heck, if Bob can’t locate one, what are my chances! I will be looking. With gas price this low I may just point the F150 North and hunt one down near the factory :-). …Road trip… winter camping yeah now that is an idea…
Define Rocker
How is it measured? ( I have heard about as many ways as there are to skin a cat)
What is its definition?
Until then "rocker " is just a word not to get excited about.
Even the experts don’t agree
Get Charlie and the two Daves together, pull up a brew and listen. Within three minutes there will be a divergence of opinion.
Funny story. I was messing around with an Osprey and a Peregrine at AFS for about four hours last summer. Charlie does Boat Designs on the beach walk and talk and overturning the Peregrine no one could find any rocker by eyeballing. I thought the Peregrine was less eager to turn with basic strokes flat boat than Osprey but not what I would expect from a “no rocker” boat (like the Souris River Tranquility Solo which really needs a truck stop sized are to turn even when heeled over).
Looking at the Hemlock website with its advertised rocker for Peregrine made me curious. I emailed Dave Curtis and got a long and polite and firm letter that indeed Peregrine did have the advertised rocker. He told me how he measured it (which is different from Yost) but I lost that email when my computer crashed.
I decided that whatever the experts said, the numbers really didn’t matter to me. I “kicked the tires” and the boat suited me.
So ya pick what means something to you and delete the rest. Computers are wonderful.
here’s the deal:
– Last Updated: Nov-18-08 9:46 AM EST –
I really don't think that the issue of "no rocker" needs to be as complicated as you wish it to be in this case. Sheesh, just set the darn boat on a flat floor and see how well the keel line matches that floor. If the bottom of the boat is in constant contact with the floor from stem to stem, I don't think you need to get all concerned about "how it's measured" to reach a conclusion. By my way of thinking, if the whole length of the hull between the stems matches a flat floor, that's reason enough to say that the boat has no rocker. Would you agree? Oh, silly me - that would never happen.
Anyway, since you are so doubtful, I measured very carefully to see if there was any rocker on my old Vagabond, and there was none (in response to shangrila below, I used a string line), but on all the other Royalex Vagabonds I've looked at, all I did was sight down the length of the hull and see no curvature at all, except where the curve for the stems first starts to differentiate itself from the main portion of the hull. I figure that tiny bit of curvature leading into the stems must not count as rocker, because if you sight down the length of the hull of a composite Vagabond (something I've done with a few different boats), the rocker is clear and unmistakable, with significant curvature involving nearly the whole length of the boat, not just a tiny fraction of an inch occurring within the last couple of inches of waterline length like on the Royalex boat. You can't possibly overlook it, and the difference between this shape and the bottom of a Royalex Vagabond is like night and day. Is the rocker of a composite Vagabond exactly 1.25 inches? That's where your fuss about "how do you measure it" comes into play. It looks pretty close to an inch-and-a-quarter, but who cares! All I'm saying is that the Royalex examples of the boat that I've looked at don't share that feature with the composite examples.
we all may be mising the point
the OP asked about the Rockstar, Wilderness and Peregrine for use as a bony river boat of class I-II 40% of the time and flatwater 60% of the time. To hear CEWilson’s point of view the OP would need two boats, one for rivers and one for flatwater. Now we all know that ain’t so and that kind of flat out take it or leave it statement doesn’t sound very expert like to me.
I grew up with a Mad River Explorer which was the Chevy pickup truck of its day and I used it exactly as Osprey wants to use one of these 3 solos. So, is the Mad River Explorer a lake boat or a river boat? Is the Wenonah Wilderness a lake boat or a river boat? None of the above, they are both very capable of doing both competently.
Would I choose a MR Explorer or the Wilderness to travel a hundred miles of lakes through BWCA? Of course not, I’d go for a skinnier boat that’s faster. Would I choose a skinny boat to paddle Class I-II bony rivers? Nope, I’d go for a Explorer or Wilderness.
The other poster was correct by the way. I measured the rocker on my Wilderness and I can assure you it is indeed 1.5 inches. The middle 5 feet of the canoe is pretty flat then it rises gradually to 1.5 inches at a point 12 inches back from the tip, just like he said.
I measured by placing the canoe upside down on sawhorses and got it level then laid a straight 16’ 2x4 on edge on the bottom. I’ve tried measure when the canoe is on the floor but its not easy to see it the way you can with the boat upside down.
According to John Winters, author of Shape of the Canoe, the 12 inches from tip is a reasonably good place to measure rocker. There are exceptions, of course, such as the Wenonah Rendezvous that has a raked bow, but for the most part most canoes seem to be measured as Mr. Winters has proposed. Of course, John Winters is nowhere near the expert as CEWilson is, but I still like his book. It’s available on CD from Greenval.com, and no I’m not affiliated with that company.
armchair paddler?
Man, you just don’t get it.
I hope Serge Corbin or Calvin Hassel don’t post something on this board.
I’m guessing you’d tell them they have no business paddling a canoe in 4 inches of water, even though they race through those conditions for miles at a time.
Not a larger Vagabond
I swapped some e-mails with Wenonah over the “big Vagabond” statements. It isn’t a big Vagabond. It’s a separate design. The “big Vagabond” description is something the marketing folks settled on to try to give potential buyers an idea of where it fits in the Wenonah lineup. IIRC, they said they designed it to fill the niche in their lineup that they were missing with the minimal-rockered fast trippers.
For what it’s worth . . .
working definition of rocker
I do find it interesting that the Swift site calls the Osprey “heavily rockered” at 1.5" front and 1" rear and indeed the Swift solos sure turn like they have some rocker…they turn way better than a Merlin II which I believe is rated at 2" front, 1" rear.
As “just a paddler” my take is that when you paddle in the fall with leaves on the water, if leaves jam up on the bow, it ain’t got much rocker. Merlin II and Peregrine catch leaves, Osprey and Shearwater (and Fire boats) don’t!
Irrelevant Details?
– Last Updated: Nov-19-08 1:13 PM EST –
Whether floating leaves gather at the bow will depend a lot more on the degree of rake and the load in the boat than rocker. My old Vagabond that had no rocker at all (you could say that it had 1/8 of an inch of rocker if you cheated in every way possible during measurement), but that long raked bow stem that Wenonah uses never caught any leaves at all. My guide-boat probably has a good two or three inches of rocker (I've never measured it, but when the boat is upside down you can see the rocker at a glance without even trying), but has tumblehome stems. With a very light load, the rounded base of the stem is above the surface and it won't collect leaves, but with a medium or heavy load, it collects every bit of surface debris it hits. By the way, my Merlin II never catches leaves at the bow because the curved portion of the stem is at the waterline, but the average middle-age man weighs about 100 pounds more than I do, so that's probably why yours does and mine doesn't. Seriously though, I really think you'd have to load it to the four-inch waterline (~340#, according to Bell) or deeper to submerge the part of the stem which is vertical enough to collect leaves, and I'd consider the boat to be pretty overloaded in that situation. For me, floating leaves slip right under the bow of that boat every time, even when carrying a big load of camping gear. It is worth noting that the upper portion of the front stem of a Merlin II is even less raked than the stem of a QCC kayak, and for some stupid reason people like to say that those kayaks have a "plum bow" (it ain't even close to plum), so yes, you'd expect the Merlin II to be more prone to catching leaves *when very heavily loaded* than most of the other boats out there which, in comparison, have front stems which are highly raked for their entire length, rather than being raked only at the "normal-load" waterline like the Merlin II.
I believe that how rocker affects turning depends just as much on how the rocker is shaped and distributed as on how much is there. A Novacraft Supernova will probably out-turn and out-spin every general-purpose canoe I know of that has similar length, because the rocker starts right near the center, and there's not a flat surface in any direction anywhere on the bottom of the boat (some boats can probably equal or exceed that performance when heeled, but heeling the boat is just a way of temporarily "creating" lots of extra rocker).
I will try to post what DY uses for
rocker measurement to the best of my recall.
He takes a plumb line off the stem tip…
and another 12 inches back of the stem…
Draw a line connecting the two plumbs and you have the bottom reference line.
The difference in height between the bottom line and the waterline end is the rocker.
There is often alot more “rocker” than measured that way in DY’s boats…sometimes it starts about three feet from amidships and “steps up” in gradual increments.
This is recalled from a stick in the dirt tutorial I got this fall with DY and may be subject to correction.
Interesting
– Last Updated: Nov-22-08 2:57 PM EST –
You'll all have to forgive me. My mother passed. I've been dealing w/ estate issues; drove back to Illinois to do some of that, and missed the center of this discussion.
In the meanwhile, someone using an alias has decided my thoughts are BS and that I need a tutorial on heeling and a reality check on experience. Every dog has its flees. That said please check my columns in Canoe Journal ~88 r.e. heeling. I still have a handle on that.
What I was trying to say in too few words is that intermediate paddlers gravitate towards "tripping canoes". The original expression of that genre, with ~ minimal rocker, was DY's Curtis "solo tripper", which evolved into the Curtis vagabond, nomad, Sawyers, autumn mist and starlight, Swift's loon and heron. Wenonah's wilderness is a recent example of the genre, sized for today's guys who've "supersized" themselves.
Other Manufacturers also weighed in; Bell's early merlin, Blackhawk's starship, zephyr and ariel and Mad River's slipper, independence and liberty.
John Winter's landed in the mid 80's with scientific proof that bow rocker had minimal control over tracking. Bell's merlin II and Swift's osprey and shearwater reacted to that startling information.
All these "tripping boats" are really generalist products. They were designed to get intermediate paddlers across lakes and to survive class 2 WW. The length/width ratio is generally slightly under 7.
The concept among designers was/is, that entry/ intermediate paddles will diverge and stratify as their skills improve. Some into river boats, others into dedicated touring boats, many into both.
River boats are a different beast from the general use tripper. They need more rocker at both ends to clear the stems when heeled to improve turning. Early river boats include Hahn's, but soon turn to Curtis's ladybug and dragonfly, both updated in Bell's, now Placid's, flash and wildFire. Other, in genre, models include Mad River's freedom, Merrimack's baboosic and Mohawk's solo 13 and 14. All have length/ width ratios around 6.
Lots of folks had trouble keeping those river boats going straight. Several Mfgs skegged the sterns to improve tracking which also limits turning for them's as don't paddle the inside circle. Bell's rockstar and yellowstone solo and Wenonah's argosy are salient examples.
At the other end of the spectrum are touring boats - de-tuned, more seaworthy, USCA racers that allow skilled paddlers to cover miles fast; sitting with a bent paddle. Sawyers Summersong and Wenonah's advantage are early versions; Bell's magic and Wenonah's prism are the outstanding modern models in the genre.
Let's discuss cross sectional shaping. Bob Demoret, sp?, with whom Ted Bell worked, was the first to use extreme tumblehome in a solo canoe. Yost used the concept in his early Sawyer and Curtis hulls.
DY developed "shouldered tumblehone" in 82, and used it on his later Curtis and almost all his Bell designs. Flare was carried higher to a double radiused shoulder. The narrow, tumblehomed, paddling station was preserved while the increased volume in the shoulder improved lift when heeling and proved almost as spray resistant as a flared hull. Galt borrowed the concept for his Lotus caper, maybe the prettiest solo ever made.
Comparing tumblehome shaping; the early BD/DY bubbles increased stability when heeled until lake level reached the widest spot on the bubble. Heeling beyond that point decreases stabilty as less volume is presented to the water. Hence the "some er swim" moniker for the Sawyer summersong. Bubbled hulls can be made in split molds, which have a tendency to hog over time, then break, and are impossible to seal for vacuum construction.
Dy's shouldered tumblehome raises the widest point in the hull's cross section. This allows increasing heel angle with greater stability. The stems can be lifted higher with security. An obvious downside is the requirement for two piece molds; more time per hull built and obvious issues for vacuum construction. Another is the nee for extra fiber content to reinforce the double radius so it doesn't Z fold when weight is applied to the rail.
Wenonah's/Kruger's bubbles are significantly lower, to allow the hull to be drawn from a one piece mold if significant lay-out is included in the hull shape. As the hulls are heeled past that low bubble, less volume is presented to the water, so stability decreases pretty quickly past a slight heel. But, one piece molds have several construction advantages; cheaper to build, faster to cycle and easier to vacuum seal among them.
With all that said, we need to address "supersizing". Lots of folks have become too tall or too wide or have acquired large dogs, and the standard 15' by 29' tripper gets a little tender so loaded. The answer is in slightly wider hulls to improve stability, particularly when seated "Wenonah high". While Sawyer's autumn mist seems an early variant, Wenonah's wilderness addresses this need for trippers and Bell's rockstar for those paddling moving water. All good!
I post under my name. My experience[s] in the community, more than most, less than many, is fairly well known, so my biases can be fairly noted. Recently, in this posting, my opinion has been dissed to the point of using profanity.
I welcome open discussion, and readily admit my biases, including Yost hulls, Wolf cookstoves and a visceral dislike for plastic hulls. I am also fairly profane, having worked my way through college peeling paint off houses with the spoken word. That said, gentle folk do not print profane abuse, especially when lacking the courage to identify themselves as they get personal.
charlie
Condolences
Sorry to hear of your loss.
FWIW, I don’t think you need to worry about your rep here, it’s fairly well above reproach. Your input is the most valuable I have seen, and I personally try to mentally “catalog” much of what you say. It is vital knowledge that very few people possess.
Charlie,
You have my condolences. I lost my mother 14 years ago and still miss her.
Thanks for the solo canoe history, I’ll be printing it out.
Next…
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1993/wetsmallxo1.jpg
A yellow Wenonah encounter set up as a solo/tandem convertible with pinned in sliding buckets.
In the best spirit of comraderie I suggest you are really looking for validation to buy the boat you are considering. As you have been through many brands and models your next purchase will probably not be for ‘life’. So what the hay, buy it, try it and decide if you have future together.
If I was running a solo with a husky dog it would be in an Encounter or MR Traveller or a comparable boat.
Condolances and Other Stuff Too
– Last Updated: Nov-22-08 8:26 AM EST –
Losing a parent really turns life upside down for a while. It's a tough time to be forced to deal with the economic stuff that goes along with it.
I hope your comment about someone giving you a lesson on boat heeling wasn't aimed at me, because I think I'm the only one who said anything about heeling in this thread. My comment wan't made as a way correcting or educating anyone - certainly not you - but was just a side-note about putting curvature in the below-water portion of the boat. Also, when I told that other guy that I haven't agreed with every single thing you've ever said, that was no insult to you (who agrees with everything anybody says, and who has never said something incorrect based on memory? Probably no one), but I thought it added credibility to my comment to that other guy that labeling someone he doesn't know anything about wasn't gonna fly in this case. I just mention those things in case you read through all that stuff too fast, which I thought might be the case since I think only one person said anything disrespectful, not two (as might be inferred from what you say regarding the remarks about you, taken in the context of what's been posted here).
Condolences from Vermont.
Was she a canoiest?
Where would we be without bias? We’d all be monotone bores. Open boat, open mind.
Rob
ps How’s the hunting?
My condolences
It must be a difficult adjustment with many matters to attend to…
It will get better…thats the only advice I have…though it took time for me(lost one 55 years ago and the other 40). Give yourself time and allocate it to whats important.
I dont think anyone here who knows you wishes you anything but the best.
jjmish
Slick idea to set the Encounter up with a quick release
tandem seat arangement. I am wondering about the stability though. It might be more challenge than I’m looking for :-).
Point taken on the boat maybe not being permanent. I’ve probably got some more fleet shuffling ahead of me but who knows.
Motivations are usually mixed, but I think validation is a small fraction of what the thread is about from my standpoint. Never really needed any about boats in the past, but I do love learning and talking about them. It will probably be spring before I get a solo. I’ve stirred up a paddling invite with Mark and his solo and who knows what is next. The idea of a Texas Raystown type event came to me while going over this thread. Central Texas isn’t a hot bed of solo canoe use and fraternity, so this is a good place to come to ask, listen and learn.
This thread has far exceeded my expectations when I made the original post, which I’ll admit was somewhat tongue in cheek. I think I posted it at the end of a long stressful day looking to start a little campfire conversation.