Where did the original poster mention
… a dog?
I haven’t often seen a ww boat with
both boat and paddler upright, and the boat full to the gunwales with water. So I still say the math is based on non-real-world assumptions.
Some good paddlers claim that, with big bags, they can tip the boat and let the water pour out one side. Haven’t seen that, but it’s plausible. I think I could do it with the Millbrook.
Well, I’ve paddled a fully swamped boat
… – with 60’ bags-- to shore a couple of times. And, anyone who has paddled with me will tell you I pretty much suck. So, it can’t be a highly specialized skill.
So, I know I can do it with 60s. You say you “think you can” with shorter bags. Same thing with re-entering a fully swamped boat with 60s. I know I can do it (cause I’ve practiced it) while you “think you could do it.”
Please report back after you’ve tried both 
"A 13’ boat like my Millbrook,
– Last Updated: Apr-28-09 4:43 PM EST –
carrying 48" bags, will float like a cork. Putting 60" bags in it just adds weight, etc."
A 14' 6" boat like a Freedom Solo carrying 60" bags will float like two corks, higher, lighter and more maneuverable, and only has 6" less open area for the paddler and gear than your Millbrook with 48" bags. Putting 60" bags in it rather than 48" bags adds little weight even when wet and significantly more water displacement when swamped.
Not all of us publicize our water dog
passions.
You can call it “little weight” if you
want. I take weights into consideration when I buy equipment, because I carry boats.
You have consistently exaggerated the benefits of 60" bags while dismissing the liabilities.
You’re stuck with them.
Hey, If you put a PFD on your waterdog
… and then lash him into the bilge, you’d have flotation that you wouldn’t have to struggle and buckle carrying from the car down to the water. Your flotation can just walk.
But with my skill, I may never have
occasion.
Seriously, whitewater paddling and recovery skills were not developed over the decades by paddling boats that were so bagged up that they essentially were no longer open canoes. They were acquired by paddling Blue Hole OCAs with styrafoam float blocks. The paddlers learned not to take on water, even when surfing.
I once saw the infamous Dick Wooten side surfing Lesser Wesser in his no-flotation OCA. He did not take on a drop. Now, many of us criticized Dick for not using flotation, because he delayed trips unpinning his boats and fixing them enough that they could be paddled. But he showed one thing clearly enough. Whether you are g2d on an easy section of the Kennebec, or Nolan Whitsell running the Niagra rapids, the first skill of open boating is learning not to take on water.
I am seeing a lot of open boaters today that don’t understand this. Their boats are jammed full of bags, and a few have lithium pumps, and they plow down the river just like they were giant kayaks.
That’s not whitewater open boating.
To the extent that one knows how not to take on water, one can use 60" bags if one chooses. But it is not inherently wiser to do so. It’s just one kind of exaggerated choice.
No, I don’t just call it that, it is
that. Both bags together weigh no more than a pound more and each bag would have to have a half gallon more water clinging to them for them to add 10 pounds when wet. It is highly unlikely that a 60" bag is going to hold a half gallon of more water on its surface than a 48" bag. And while you take extra weight into consideration because you carry boats (don’t we all?) it really is a minimal amount to carry for the extra benefit derived.
You have consistently exaggerated the liabilities of 60" bags while dismissing the benefits.
I’m definitely in the more is better
camp, but I’m willing to put it to the test. I have an Impluse that was originally rigged with 30" bags. I took them out and replaced them with a 72" bag in front, and a 60" bag in back. If you come to T’ville this summer, I’ll bring the boat and both sets of bags. We’ll play around and see if there is any difference. I’ll keep an open mind if you will. I have to warn you, I’m pretty good at dealing with swamped boats - I swim a lot.
Deal?
On a site like this, new paddlers ask
… “what gear should I get?”
Those with decades of experience can, and often do, respond with the best choices for THEMSELVES, with all their skill and experience.
Yet there’s another advantage to dismiss
The less open space the easier and faster it is to bail out the same amount of water.
Deal, although I’m not sure how the
crucial test will be conducted.
No, I haven’t. For most people, 60"
bags are a waste in every way.
The thing about a full boat is
– Last Updated: Apr-28-09 7:27 PM EST –
Oh Gary you may not have seen it, but I've lived it a few times.
Yeah if I was a better paddler I wouldn't have taken the line that dropped me in the hole at the top of Lower Poplar on the Dead. But I did.
And after the 4372 braces on account of I was too scared to swim there the boat came back up!
But I was still at the top of Lower Poplar and the water was spilling out over my gunnels, Even with the 60" bags (yes there were two) that Outrage was HEAVY! But the Outrage is a good hull and I was more than a little lucky.
Because the thing about a full boat is there isn't room for any more water and you got some SERIOUS momentum. Holes? Waves? Who cares? Blow right through them! So long as you don't hit a rock...
Anyway like I said that day I was lucky. Lucky that my boat was light enough to still be somewhat controlable.
Lucky that the river gods didn't throw something else at me. Lucky there was a shore eddy I was able to make.
That was a few years back. I had a couple of similar though less exhilarating experiences a few weeks ago up on the Ashuelot. Full boat up over the gunnels. Paddled to an eddy and dumped her out. I don't quit paddling until there's no other choice.
In an open playboat I'll use all the floatation I can squeeze in.
In a touring or poling boat you have to compromise with space for other things.
I do have to agree that a huge skill in open boating is seeing and paddling the "dry line".
I'm pretty awful at that but I've paddled with guys who not only could do it, they could show me where the "dry line" was.
I don't believe that bigger bags eliminate the need for that skill. A full boat doesn't paddle near as well as a dry one does even with 60 inch bags.
Tommy
I don’t know - we’ll figure it out
Daggermat can be the impartial third vote – he hasn’t chimed in on this yet. Maybe we’ll get a picture of you in a boat full of bags like this one.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2106462530075003331drjdTN
You wouldn’t notice much difference
between 60" and 48" bags.
Y’all are defending an extreme position. Like saying no one should go on a tandem expedition except in an 18 foot boat, or that everyone ought to install double cross shoulder straps in a car.
The rest of us aren’t going to put up with 60" float bags because of things that almost never happen. If they ARE happening to you, maybe you’re getting to be a class 4 paddler.
It really makes me sick to see people advising a guy to almost fill his Mad River Freedom Solo with float bags so he can paddle easy rapids. But I guess, as a psychologist, I should realize they are rationalizing their own rather extreme position.
I think it is an extreme position
… to insist that present-day inflatable, adjustable, and completely malleable flotation bags should maintain the same maximum dimensions as old-school fixed and solid blocks of styrofoam from 25 years ago.
Well, either that or I’m trying to keep this thread going …;>)
Lemme know what you and Clarion
decide about that.
outfitting
Since I also have a Freedom Solo I have been following this thread. For class 1, 2 in the Freedom solo, how far should one go with the outfitting? I want to keep the bench seat in for solo fishing and leisurely floats, but would like to use the canoe in mild white water more. My skill level would be described as a practiced novice in the canoe club I belong. I use a Bell kneeling pad, but do I need to upgrade to knee blocks, then do I go to thigh straps… it seems this could keep going until I have the FS outfitted like a full blown WW boat. I don’t think that’s what I want, but want to know what the experienced ww boaters feel is really necessary and useful.
Thanks
Dan