Not just one Boat Fit !!! Re-current
boat schlepilepsy!
Okay…
Speed is a hard one to test given wind and water conditions and is based on paddler’s effort as well. How did I test speed? Well I tested boats back to back on multiple days in the same conditions, using GPS to determine speed and over set courses over which I paddled and compared times.
I made comparisons between crusing speed and sustained speed at an exercise pace.
I infer that there is an implication that my testing was subjective on the issue of speed. It really wasn’t. It was as quantifiable as possible and I tried to be as unbiased in my determinations and calculations as possible and I really feel that I got a good understanding of how the boats compare in terms of speed.
My speed comparisons took hours and hours of testing and it was done pretty carefully and obsessively.
As far as measuring waterline length….that will only determine the max hull speed really which is not necessarily make one boat faster than another at a fixed level of effort at which a given paddler feels most comfortable paddling….and that’s a fact. Not all of us always paddle with enough input effort to drive and maintain a boat at max hull speed.
Other factors come into play like frictional resistance….but I don’t want to get into this whole discussion on what influences speed. If anyone wants to know more on that subject read Winters book, “The Shape of the Canoe.”
I found the speed of the merlin and the Osprey very close, but the Merlin was faster in all trials. It is a faster boat than the Osprey in my trials but not by a significant margin.
Otherwise there is really no comparison among the other boats. The Magic is DEFINITELY faster than the Merlin. The Osprey is DEFINITELY faster than the YS solo. You don’t even need a GPS to determine that…and it makes sense too given that I am comparing a composite Osprey to a royalex YS solo which has blunter entry lines, etc. Comparing the two composite models would be a more fair comparison.
As far as the paddler being the biggest factor….yeah but so what…it’s the same paddler and the comparison was of the boats and how they differ.
A Magic will always be faster than the YS solo with the same paddler……always.
If we put the same V-8 engine in various different cars, all with different transmissions and suspensions etc, they would all perform differently too.
This was a comparison of boats and not of paddlers or what a boat could do with a better paddler.
And while the paddler is the most important thing the fact is that the boat matters too. Put the best marathon canoeist in a race and give him a royalex YS solo and I doubt he will win racing against other lesser paddlers in a bunch of racing boats. Give a guy like Harold Deal a Wehnonah Advantage and let him go run a whitewater slalom course….I doubt the results will be impressive.
So in no way am in saying that the boat is more important than the paddler and I really wish people would stop implying that I am in any way saying that. I am only comparing boats and passing on what I have found to others as they may find it helpful and useful information to help them to make decisions about what boats are best for them……and again in that case the paddler is held constant.
And last…as far as sitting vs. kneeling boats…this is my comparison so I chose to categorize them as I saw fit.
You can sit in any canoe…you can kneel in any canoe. But a YS solo is really not ideal for sit and switch paddling nor is it designed to be so. Same with the Magic as a kneeling canoe.
Lets face it and stop being so critical about sitting and kneeling. Some canoes were designed with the intent to be used for sit and switch paddling. You can still paddle them kneeling of course but to argue that point is somewhat fruitless. Lets face it…the Magic and the Advantage were designed with the intent to be used as sit and switch boats. That’s a fact. They are both delta shaped hulls. Even David Yost will tell you that. He specifically said that the Magic was designed to be used for sitting and that if you wanted to kneel then that was okay but then why not just get a Merlin which is not a delta shaped hull specifically designed for sitting.
You could sit and switch a whitewater play boat too if you wanted to but to.
My categorization of the Magic as a sitting boat and the YS solo as a kneeling boat is pretty reasonable and accurate.
Some boats are designed to be used sitting and others are designed to be used kneeling. You can use them any way you want to…but they are designed for and optimized for different purposes.
Matt
and…
– Last Updated: Jul-09-10 11:56 AM EST –
To address more of kayamedics comments...
I can't comment on the Colden canoes etc. My review is only of boats I have owned. I have made no comments that the Fire series is no good etc. I have only compared the royalex YS solo I owned to the osprey.
These are my opinions based on what I have owned and my personal opinions which are as objective as possible.
I am sure that the Colden fire series are great...but when comparing the royalex YS solo to other boats I have paddled those are my conclusions...not as fast or maneuverable as the Osprey, faster than the Guide and better tracking but not as maneuverable.
And unlike her comment I did not write this to show that I have paddled a lot of boats. I am trying to share information with others that I have learned through a lot of time and testing. Maybe it will be helpful to someone else and others have actually asked me to do so......
Boat nerds
I just had the trip of a lifetime on the Allagash, only me and my son. I guess I could have spent the same amount of time testing boats and writing reviews. To each his own.
Chris
critics…
or you could spend less time being critical of others and make everyone happier…
All this testing is done after work when most people are probably watching TV so I don’t find any of this to be wasted time. It’s just more time on the water.
And I went on several multi-day trips this year myself in several different states so in no way is my boat testing taking away from my quality time on teh water.
And…not being married I got paddling as much as I want to.
Does your wife let you do that?
Since I live on the water and have no one to answer to I generally paddle every day…and sometimes twice a day. So again, I don’t think that I am missing any good paddlign time by doing my testing and comparison.
Matt
I don’t remember where I read it but
I read a review in which two good paddlers paddled the Merlin II against the Magic and traded back and forth, concluding that the Merlin II was as fast on flat water as the Magic. Paddled flat sit and switch, I believe the Merlin II would require more switches than the harder-tracking Magic and therefore be a little slower.
I find that I can get the Merlin II carving a bit and greatly reduce the frequency of switches and I suspect that I would have to paddle it this way to match a Magic. I have kept pace in the Merlin II with a good paddler in a Wenonah Prism, a boat to which the Magic is frequently compared.
As for the Royalex Yellowstone solo, I’m sure it couldn’t touch the performance of either a Bell Wildfire composite or a Colden Wildfire. I did paddle the Colden Wildfire a little in June. I can’t say I noted any great difference between it and the composite Bell Wildfire, but I didn’t paddle them back to back. Some of the free stylers thought that the Colden was subtly different from the Bell, however.
Well, discussing the relative merits of
different boats is no doubt a form of mental masturbation, but it doesn’t preclude paddling.
And talking about boats is the next best thing to paddling them.
I have quite a few different boats and I like switching around. When I paddle one I haven’t been in for a while I am often pleasantly reminded of what it does particularly well.
Another “Boat Nerd” Here
I have enjoyed your reviews and musings on the different solo canoes. I guess i too am a certifiable “Boat nerd” also on the quest to find that “Perfect” stable of boats. I’m certain there are many others out here that feel the same.
I can remember when my paddling consisted of a river trip a couple times a month while awaiting the next “Big trip” I was planning. But now, thanks to medical issues and expenses, those “Big trips” aren’t possible and I live for those couple of short trips a week and the opportunities to paddle different boats looking for that “Perfect canoe.”
I have thoroughly enjoyed paddling vicariously through you while you sample and muse upon different hulls. Please, keep it up! I’m certain I’m not the only “Canoe Nerd” out here that is enjoying your quest to find canoe mecca (LOL)! WW
I invite Disagreement…
– Last Updated: Jul-09-10 1:48 PM EST –
By the way, I invite disagreement on my conclusions above and would like to hear others share their opinions, whether or not the are the same as mine.
However....just plain criticism that assumes that my methods must be flawed, that I don't know what I am talking about, or irrational statements that I could have gone on wilderness trips had I not spent so much time making mental notes about my boats I have owned are really not necessary and add no value.
thanks
Matt
review
– Last Updated: Jul-09-10 2:09 PM EST –
The one boat you tested that I have a lot experience in is the Supernova. I think your impressions pretty much mirror mine. Except with 6" additional height, the boat doesn't feel too big for me to have good control. But I have tried to discourage others in your height range against it, you included I think. As far as not having a secondary stability point at which to rest, what I always did was tilt the boat so that my left (onside) knee was completely at the bottom of the boat. It's a great way to rest completely. But it also created a habit that didn't play well with other hulls like the Osprey. I agree with you that it is a fast boat for its class.
So what WW boat are you getting?
yeah…
it’s just a little big. big enough to where I did not feel I could man handle the boat as much as I would like to when necessary.
As far as the secondary I was referring more to the fact that it doesn’t have that really well and discernable edge on which to rest. Still balances well but is not as defineable as on other boats that have harder chines.
I am getting a used Probe 13…probably will go through a bunch of whitewater boats too but that is a safe bet with which to start.
I resisted getting a true whitewater boat for a long time.
i am going to paddle Little Falls on the Potomac River with it tomorrow.
matt
You can paddle a WW boat on flat water.
You might get frustrated.
You can paddle a flat water boat on whitewater. You might get hurt.
Nice Reviews
Nice write ups, Matt. Seems to me if I was looking for a high-end solo canoe, that’d be a valuable set of notes. Suggest you cut and paste over to the reviews section of the web site so that people looking for user reviews will have a resource.
Not everybody has access to the water and the gumption to go paddle like you have been doing. For those of you who don’t know Matt, he paddles about every day, including winter, in the dark, and in what he calls “interesting” conditions, and what the rest of us call a gale warning. So, I’m glad you took the time to set down your observations for those of us who can’t put the hundreds of hours into comparing canoes.
I’m looking forward to Matt’s Notes on WhiteWater Boats!
~~Chip
How about a Probe review …
I see it’s for sale already. What didn’t you like?
Height and Weight?
Matt what is your size? It is relevant to your reviews but I could not find it here.
Thanks
Size
Good point. That is very relevant to my reviews. I am 5’8 and about 200 pounds so I a pretty short and stocky build. That may have something to do with why I did not like the Wildfire as much as I thought I would have.
matt
Thanks, Matt
I found your analyses very informative.
Size and Fit
I’m conscious that height and proportions are not the same thing: some people my height are 2-3" longer in the leg… and all other things being equal, I reckon that has a BIG impact on canoe “fit” - and I’m convinced that the same hull must feel different to people who fit in a different way.
Of course, all other things are rarely equal… and seat height is one such thing. For example, I’ve taken to the 28.5" beam Flashfire despite being 6’ tall… but the seat’s mounted almost at gunwale height (came that way) and I kneel pretty high (and am comfortable sitting high on the rare occasions when I don’t kneel) - but I’ve seen smaller paddlers in Flashfires with a much lower body position and with the gunwales nearer their armpits.
Brings me to a query: what conclusions have you come to about fit through these tests of many and varied open canoes - with hugely different waterline beams.
responses…
On fit…I found that for sit and switch boats that I liked the fit of the Advantage better than the Magic. It was narrower and I felt more connected to the boat and better able to get a vertical paddle.
For Kneeling boats I found that the Wildfire and Merlin were quite narrow and yielded a narrower stance for my shorter legs (I have a longer torso and shorter legs).
Then in order of width of knee spread come the Osprey, the Guide and then the Supernova. The Nova is too wide for my knees and just too wide in general.
The other boats fit okay, but are a matter of what you get used to as well.
Unfortunately though I believe that a boat’s ability to handle bigger waves and water are largely a function of volume, width and freeboard. So regardless of what fit you prefer if you want to run bigger water you need a bigger boat in my opinion.
Perfect example is that the YS solo was a very comfortable fit for me but just not big enough for class III drops and wave trains.
On the probe……well I didn’t care for it but I also didn’t give it too much of a chance. I took it on a short class III run. It was certainly more capable of handling big waves and drops than anything I had paddled before, and was more maneuverable as well with all that rocker compared to my non-whitewater boats, but I just did not feel in total control of the boat. Probably because I am not used to a true WW boat, but I did not feel in good control and was missing eddies and getting pushed around when trying to ferry, etc.
I feel in much better control of my MR Guide and it handles the water that I run so maybe I just want to stick with it for now rather than a true WW boat. Plus I just didn’t have fun paddling it like I do with the Guide.
Matt
I too resisted a dedicated WW boat
… for a goodly while. The biggest thing I had to get used to when jumping in my first WW boat was how to apply power without turning the boat. My guess is that’s what you were contending with too. It takes a while.