Have anyone compared the travelling speed of a Sea Wind to a J-193, We-no-nah Voyager or Clipper Sea 1?
seems to me mick and someone else tested these out last year so they may be in the archives if you search for it.
my personal opinion is that “speed” is such a cliche. It is really irrelevant in a LOT of ways, just because there is so MANY variables to consider i.e weather, winds, wieght of gear in boat, current/tides, are you in shape, hungover? etc etc when one considers these varibles, you can look at it as if the boat itself “changes its own design” in other words…its could be slow one moment, sluggish another, real fast another time…JUST like certain Hull designs…but instead of the hull creating the change…its the variables etc. Does that make sense? I am a sea wind owner now for 8 year i think. Somedays its fast some days its slow as hell. Not because the boat changed its design but the variables changed…which in the same sense…yes the boat design DID change… Thats why to me its sooo overrated that people even talk about speed unless you are into serious racing and every second needs to be considered to win. Verlen the designer of the sea wind once said something important that the person needs to “just be in better shape to pull the extra weight of the boat” this is soo true. Most of the boats you mentioned are seldom padded empty. Ive carried 300lbs of gear…so add that to the boats weight, i then now have a 355lb boat! Heavy? yeah, but i can shave off 5-90lbs no problem…I doest matter if you take the weight off the boat itself or whats in it…Weight is weight…!!! A big thing that is sooooooooooooooo overlooked too, is that physical weight is LESS when in water. I persoanlly weigh about 170lbs which is ONLY about 8 lbs in the water. A 100 lb boat compared to a 55lb boat IN WATER the wieght become mear ounces!!!
A big factor in speed is how good of shape YOU are in and I dont just me physical… but MENTAL… Ive learned on long expeditions one in particular that lasted 6 months,that it was 90% mental. My ability to keep paddling 10-17 hour days at all cost…all mental…keep going. In a sense this adds up to the boats SPEED. If at the end of the day I am 20 miles further than someone not in MENTAL shape than am I not also faster???
The point being in my answer is…it doesnt really matter unless you want every possible advantage such as in a race.
then again, what do I know.
j-193 is made for flat our racing and judging by the hull shape, it would be the fastest. I wouldn’t take in on a camping or touring trip though.
Compating decked to decked, I’d say it APPEARS that the Sea-1 would have the edge because it’s longer, finer entry and exit, and not very rockered. But factor in the variable the other poster mentioned, and that all could change.
Weight versus Mass
I do agree with you that speed is a very subjective thing and that it depends on many conditions, but what you should be talking about is mass, because your use of the term "weight", and how things weigh less in water isn't truly applicable to what you are talking about. In fact, with any example with a loaded boat, "weight in water" is always a negative value, and that is why the boat floats. Your own weight in water will not be the same as your effective weight when in a boat for the same reason. The two cannot be compared.
As a sidenote, your own weight in water is controlled by your body's density, not your weight on land. If you weigh eight pounds in water, you are quite the "sinker" (as opposed to a floater), and most people would not be able to tread water for very long at all if an eight-pound force were necessary to stay afloat (the force necessary to counteract the stated weight-in-water value). Another person who weighs exactly the same as you might by very bouyant, and float easily, but that person's body would be less dense.
The fact that heavy loads take less effort to move in water compared to the effort needed to carry them on land is comparable to the reason heavy loads carried on wheels are easier to move than loads which are carried on your back. In both cases the amount of force needed to get the object moving and keep it moving has been reduced, not due to any change in weight, but due to elimination of the need to also support the object as well as move it. On that subject though, on level ground (a fair situation to consider since water is also level), an object carried on wheels is as easy, or easier to move (depending on speed) than an object carried in water, debunking the notion that any change in "weight" is responsible for changes in required force to make the object move horizontally.
Mass is a measure of how much "stuff" is in an object. Mass does not change with location or the means of supporting the object against the force of gravity (wheels, backpack, bouyancy). Mass, and the force needed to get it moving, or to stop it once it is moving, is what controls how a load affects boat handling, along with the fact that the effective overall shape and wetted surface area of the hull changes with changes in displacement. This is well illustrated by the fact that a boat with loads near the ends (like a standard tandem canoe with paddlers at both ends) will float nice and high but will plunge deeply into waves. As one end of the boat is pushed upward by the force of bouyancy as the wave passes, the mass of the load resists the acceleration force, and the motion of the boat lags behind the rising of wave surface. If the "weight" of an object in the boat changed as you say it does, and to such an enormous degree as you claim, it wouldn't be necessary to move heavy loads (like the paddlers) away from the ends and toward the center of a canoe to keep the ends of the boat from dipping and flooding the boat when the waves kick up.
Put an extra 300 pounds in a boat, and it will be harder to accelerate due to the extra mass, and it will take more effort to keep it moving because of increased drag of the more deeply displaced hull. On the other side of the coin, that extra inertia of the more massive load will help mitigate the effects of sudden gusts of wind, and in gusty headwinds, you won't decelerate as much with each gust (this happens for the same reason a loaded boat plunges into waves that it would otherwise float over).
Speed is maybe a wrong word, let me rephrase. Wich one is easiest to move at regular fast cruising speed. I wanted to know if somebody had tried all and compared. The reason to include J193 is because Verlen claimed his design was comparable to a USCA C1. As we know the Sea Wind is narrower at the waterline than a USCA C1 and it has a more rounded hull design, more comparable to a pro boat or a racing kayak, even though much wider than the racing kayak. I have the Sea 1 and like it a lot, but it is not comparable in speed to a J193. It would therefore be very interesting to see if anyone has compared the different designs for speed.
I live in Norway, but would like to have a boat like the Kruger/Sea 1 type boat in Florida for my visits there. I am thinking about doing the Everglades challenge and would like to know if the Sea 1 or the Sea Wind is the fastetst or the one requireing the least effort to paddle at a reasonable speed.
thank you for the very nice post
I have a new found appreciation for wheels AND my hull!
A couple of year ago I was comparing cruising speed of Sea Wind and some of my other boats (Surfrigger outgrigger canoe and Spencer X-treme) on ~18 mile lake course:
Sea Wind was definetely the easiest boat to paddle at cruising speed. I was doing these test from a perspective of a much longer paddle (~300 miles).
Thanks for that chart.
im sure you are so corrent about everything you said. I failed terrible all my college math and physics classes, i dropped them the first week. My simple brain cannot handle the complexites. Im sure you are right about it, but i do think the bottom line and somethine you and I (and many others too) agree with is that its NOT really a major big deal the speed, we all look for comfort, feel, usage/purpose, looks, trends, word of mouth as to what we will paddle next or buy as our new boat. I know from personal expereince, that having the one main boat as the one i paddle 95% of the time…i know it like the back of my hand, its qualities and how it functions, and I know how to get the most out of it. Hell all i want to do is retire and go paddle, even if its a hollowed out log that weighs 900lbs.
All those impressive trips you’ve done, and you might even settle for a hollowed out log? Here’s hoping it never comes to that, but yes, being on the water in a boat you know well is a wonderful thing.
I’ve Paddled Sea Wind & Voyager
I’d take the Sea Wind over ANY boat out there for comfort, speed, efficiency, load IF I was a sitter.
Verlen won so many race because he was in shape, yes, but also because the Sea Wind incorporates as many factors as possible to become one of the best, if not THE best, expedition kayak/canoe available.
The other posts explained this so well, I’ll shut up, now. There are faster boats, but FEW can even THINK to challenge the Sea Wind for expedition canoeing.
i actually got to expereince the hollowed out log this year!!! Friends of mine paddled a 26 foot log from the Pacific up the columbia, snake and down the yellowstone and missouri to st. louis to close the lewis and clark bicentennil…
I got to paddle stern the log…its was like a limo…sooooooooo comfortable and stable, i could stand up and one guy does a head stand in the canoe…yeah i think i need to make one…or two.
Verlan’s thought on speed was
and, I damn near quote on this, “there are faster boats out there and stronger paddlers but I designed my boats to be comfortable over a long distance. Being uncomfortable robs speed and being sore robs speed, plus, I know tricks”. There is much to be said for matching the boat to its intended use, conditioning,comfort, mental and physical perseverence and experience.