Details are helpful
Also consider a SOT in the 14 foot range. I have a Manta Ray that works great for what you want. It has a big dry hatch in the front and a large deck on the back that makes it easier to load and unload a lot of gear.
I am a first year guy and I recently did a 14 mile trip on the Tennessee with 5 touring boats and it performed respectably.
It’s a very stable boat and a dry ride. Scupper holes drain any water you take on. No problem with anything from bass boat wakes to 3 foot swells from a larger boat.
It weathercocked a bit on the last trip, but I think loading the front a little heavier will resolve that.
jim
OK - now I am confused
Lee, not sure right now where your point lies - hull design in a skinny boat or wider. Maybe I need more coffee?
Sirius
I’ve only paddled a Sirius a couple times, it feels like it can sit comfortable one side or the other of the centerline on flat water
Sirius is for non-flat water!
She can be a little tippy in flat water till you get your balance in her. I was referring to her performance in non-flat water; in other words, she has awesome secondary stability when edged (or on the side of a wave). In fact, I had trouble rolling her at first because she didn’t want to come off the edge onto the hull! To roll the Sirius you must have proper technique - hip-snap and head-down definitely musts when rolling this baby…I have owned/paddled plenty of other boats and she is it for me (at least this year…)
My recall
Just was in a Sirius once on flat water, but in those conditions myself and someone else testing at the same time was having the devil of a time figuring out where/if there was a real hang point. I had assumed that things become a little clearer in conditions, but even that isn’t universal. We were talking to someone who used to run a kayak touring business on Lake Champlain, who said he liked the Sirius because it was a vague transition thru that secondary point.
Sweet ride for sure - I really liked the feel of the boat. She just seems to be a boat that gets pretty varied responses.
Primary stability rules!
– Last Updated: Jan-09-08 4:31 PM EST –
Your questions are correct. All that secondary stability that supposedly kicks in during rough water is a lot of nonsense. You can't even use or appreciate any secondary until you have paddling skills. Wayne Smith's post is on the money.
A boat with more flare is going to have greater secondary. If you floated in a box and leaned it over to the side, it would capsize suddenly. If the sides flared out to the point where they were a few inches off the water, you could lean all the way on it's side and it would float. That's the exaggerated principal.
There was a link a while back about someone's infatuation with the Explorer. Here's a very loved boat with an almost flat bottom - large primary stability and I believe that's what paddlers want. They like primary stability. It makes them feel comfortable in rough water. It takes less skill. And that's the way it should be.
Kayaks with round bottoms are faster and tippier and that's the trade. Somewhere in the mix is a kayak that has a bit of both and feels good to you.
So your inquiry is correct. Secondary is not going to magically make a kayak with little primary stability feel good in rough water. People throw these terms around in kayak stores who can just about paddle. Get a kayak with good primary stability that you feel good in and later as you gain skills, you will be able to take advantage of what secondary the kayak has down the line. The secondary allows you to lean it on edge a bit for turns and other things but you can't do that without paddling skills.
Rethink
– Last Updated: Jan-09-08 12:25 PM EST –
I killed my higher post because it wasn't contributing the way things were going on this thread. Or even way off depending on the point of view.
But as I read the posts about secondary not being of value until someone feels comfortable in a boat being fully upright, if I paraphrase correctly, I wonder. I think of my decision process when I tested my Squall.
That particular day, the lake had some pretty good waves from a good wind fetch and big crossing boat wakes. Compared to my prior transition boat, with all primary, the Squall was entirely disinterested in staying exactly upright. I spent most of the time being kicked around or finding out that the boat could go over the top of a wave with less than half of the hull in the water.
Of course, it was a Solstice series boat, so no matter how much I got kicked around the boat kept returning to upright, with no bracing of any use from me. I was just sitting there and doing my best to stay out of the boat's way.
By the time I got back to the boathouse I had decided that the Squall was likely my boat (I still had three stacked up to try), but it had nothing whatsoever to do with brief moments that the boat had been exactly upright. And it wasn't because I was relaxed in the boat - that took several weeks. My decision was entirely based on the very unnerving moments that the boat had hit the wall to one side or the other and came back up. I figured if I could do my part to get used to the boat, it'd do its part to get me home.
So - basically - I'm not sure that that experiences jives with the proposition that a boat with wide/flat primary stability will feel better in conditions. Especially for lighter weight people who are likely to really feel that wall. Or does it?
STABILITY?
ok so now if i throw in another factor of weight. so ive got my kayak im loading all my gear in it and i head out i get into rough water.wouldnt all the excess weight kindof help keep my kayak up right?? and another thought with a loaded down yak would all the gear in it be a negative factor in recovery roll when i flip over?would the weight make it harder to get up right again?
tim
I wonder
if the varied responses is related to the cg(heigh/weight) of the paddler. Sure there are personal preferences for handling but I think the Sirius will seperate out people pretty quickly if they aren’t within a particular range of size. Kind of like the Nigel Foster boats.
Boat fully loaded
Makes it altogether less reactive, to my feeling of it. If more stability means getting kicked around less, yes it feels that way (again to me).
As to rolling - the usual opinion is no diff. But despite assurances otherwise I expected it to be harder to roll my fully loaded kayak the first time I tried.
It wasn’t. The only thing I noticed was maybe a slightly more deliberate feeling, not the spiffy quick-snap roll that I sometimes get.
Slower
– Last Updated: Jan-09-08 2:56 PM EST –
A loaded boat seems to roll slower and feels less reactive/responsive than the same boat unloaded.
Could be
I hadn’t thought of it, but while the Silhouette is an attention-getting boat for anyone I was a lot more comfortable in it than my legend-sized husband. I’d have to try the Sirius in conditions I think, with my more current paddling comfort, to get a really good gauge.
Misconceptions about Wave Dynamics
Sea kayakers frequently describe the dynamics of waves incorrectly. The misconceptions are being continued here in this string.
There is a popular illustration that shows a sea kayaker sitting vertically in his horizontal sea kayak while he paddles across the angled face of a wave. This image is often used to illustrate the benefits of less initial stability. Unfortunately the image illustrates an impossible condition. While it looks very convincing, the image does not portray the real-world dynamics of waves. This is why it is an illustration and not an actual photograph. I challenge anyone to go out and try to capture a photo of this same situation without having to brace into the face of the wave.
One of the best books I’ve read that explains wave dynamics correctly and in a manner most can understand is ‘The Symmetry of Sailing’ by Ross Garrett. This book, as well as others, can explain wave dynamics more eloquently than me.
Anyway, the key to understanding waves is to know that the wave’s circular movement creates a localized centrifugal force that combines with gravity to create a resultant localized “gravity” that is always perpendicular to the wave’s face. Otherwise the wave’s water would fall off the face and the wave would not exist. It is much like swinging a bucket of water back and forth. The water stays perpendicular with the buckets rim because of the centrifugal forces.
Bottom line is that a flat bottomed kayak with more initial stability will maintain a higher level of stability compared to a similar boat less initial stability whether in flat water or in rolling waves. The flat bottom will be perpendicuar to the waves local gravity and hence be more stabile.
Flat bottom heavy boats
Nigel proved to the kayak world that large initial stability is a good trade overall. And it’s weight which is a by-product of (his) construction also is an asset on the water in many cases.
-jaybabina
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=761433#763630
Aled Williams and Nigel Dennis’ most dramatic hull changes to the Pintail mold were making the hull squarer - flatter bottom and sides. Romanys and Explorers are more confidence inspiring than Pintails and Nordkapps in great part because they have much higher primary stability and unmistakable hang point when on their sides.
If you relax in the boat you can feel an Aquanaut (or an OI) hit a hang point of heel. If you are not relaxed the boat will go right past that point. The slab sides of a Romany and Explorer make that hang point unmissable even if you are not relaxed.
The genius of the NDK boats is they have stability as unmistakable as a rec boat, but responsiveness that allows them to perform in conditions. As ND said “a boat an average paddler can use in advanced conditions.”
Are you saying
the localized gravity effect also applies to a boat and its contents on the waveface so that it is pressed onto the wave face and that a flat bottom boat has more surface area affected and thus there is more force pressing it onto the waveface to make it more stable? Sounds a bit odd to me.
like the Nigel Foster boats.
I’m 6’ and weighed 170+ the last time I paddled Foster boats. The Silhouette felt the most tender of any sea kayak I’ve paddled. The Legend was quite comfy while being lively. Nigel Foster put me in the Legend, saying I was too big for a Silhouette.
Among the joys for me of paddling my Nordlow or Romany is that each performs well with just me and day kit aboard.
When I first got my Aquanaut, I was very aware of how much more noticeable its primary when loaded than unladen. Now I simply feel it has too much free board unladen.
Weight matters as far as stability. Look at the curves in the Sea Kayaker reviews to get a sense of how much difference it really makes.
yeah but
the kayak is not the water so while it may react to that circular motion within the wave…oh damn,this is too confusing. yeah, if it’s stable on flat water it’s stable in choppy water but at some point that stability fights ones ability to hold the hull within a comfortable range without excessive jiggling about, look it up,jiggling about, I’m sure it’s in the book.
Huh ?
“Anyway, the key to understanding waves is to know that the wave’s circular movement creates a localized centrifugal force that combines with gravity to create a resultant localized “gravity” that is always perpendicular to the wave’s face. Otherwise the wave’s water would fall off the face and the wave would not exist. It is much like swinging a bucket of water back and forth. The water stays perpendicular with the buckets rim because of the centrifugal forces.”
Do you have a more detailed reference for this statement. I must admit its been many years since I took dynamics and fluid mechanics but I’m having a hard time seeing where this local gravity comes from or the centrifugal force, and yes the only forces acting on the wave are propagated wave energy which can be exerted by accerlerating water in any direction along a forward moving wave front, Gravity -down, wind - some mostly horizontal vector, and surface tension -very small, and forces at molecular level that are even smaller. Where does this local gravity come from?
“Local Gravity”
– Last Updated: Jan-09-08 7:50 PM EST –
Though I'm not 100-percent sure I agree with everything he says about paddling in waves, I do understand what he meant by this force. The force which acts just like gravity is due to acceleration (with acceleration being defined as any change in velocity). Just like when your car changes velocity (which can simply mean altering course at the same "speed" (because speed is not the same as velocity)), you feel yourself pushed in one direction or another, for example, toward the outside of a curve.
As for "stability" and waves, I feel more comfortable in a boat that easily rocks than in one that's highly stable when in waves - I don't get knocked around as much. I think the rocking of the boat is much less abrupt if initial stability is low.
Forget kayak stability
We might need to think about mental stability…
This thread started out interesting but has gone off the proverbial deep end.
jim