I often hear that stern draws and pry’s are not meant to be turning strokes but strokes (well, not sure they’re actually strokes to my mind since you’re mostly just keeping the paddle in position) meant to keep you going straight when boat is being acted on by other outside forces (e.g., when surfing down a wave). Anyone know why they shouldn’t be considered turning strokes? They DO turn your boat, although for reasons I don’t understand, they DO seem less effective than bow rudders and maneuvers that have your paddle off to your side. I’m a bit surprised by that. One might argue that they are acting preferentially to push or pull your stern, which is not anchored like the bow is, and should therefore be MORE effective than a bow rudder, for instance.
Stern draws and pries are instrumental in how that bow stuff works. Leave the stern stuff out and the bow stuff is incredibly not effective. In order to get the stern swinging that big radius you need a direct force on it to start the swing.
See this all the time in freestyle canoeing… Students sometimes ( well often ) forget when they are learning that nothing much happens if they ignore that draw or pry component in the stern. Its called an initiation of turn… The bow is the accentuation but the accentuation never happens if the stern did not initiate… the usual resort is a sloppy sideslip.
In canoe parlance, they are corrections strokes. To your point, they certainly can turn the boat, but are more often linked with other strokes to initiate a turn (as Kayamedic said). A duffec for example often starts with the stern pry to begin skidding the stern, which makes the bow draw more effective.
Maybe we are not taking about the same thing, but I think of a stern pry or draw is a short stroke close to the hull. For a turn, most people would probably use a reverse sweep rather than a bunch of short stern pries. Same with the stern draw – most people would just do a forward sweep.
In whitewater, stern pries and draws are used for subtle corrections at the stern while surfing a wave. While surfing you might also use a hanging (static) stern pry or draw. Sounds like that might be what you are talking about.
Bow and stern paddlers working together and understanding each other’s intent and paddle strokes is extremely important to efficient forward movement and tight maneuvering. Considerable prior practice is needed to make it work. For me, primarily as a bow paddler, this really shows up at speed on the Adirondack 90-mile canoe race. The 2.5 mile very twisty and winding Brown’s Tract heading into Raquette Lake is my favorite part of the entire race. I ask my stern paddler to set us up in the straights before a turn to keep us toward the outside of an upcoming turn. In the bow I hut independently as needed and apply minor corrections for small direction corrections as I see the turn coming. Then as we approach the turn, one or two strokes before I begin the draw to cut us over, the stern will initiate the all important setup to the desired turn entry “approach angle” by drawing the stern away from the turn as I then power-draw onside into it. Stern will apply draws and prys to angle stern around the turn while I draw, post and bow rudder as necessary. In a c4 or voyageur canoe, the mid paddlers maintain power and speed and we whip around the most radical of turns. Passing other boats near turns is an entirely different process working with this strategy.
I’ve found the terminology a bit confusing and maybe inconsistent, and may have misconveyed what I meant. What I was referring to may be more correctly called a stern rudder (?): placing the blade parallel to the boat (I’m a sea kayak paddler - not sure if it’s different in a canoe) and behind you, back towards the stern, and then angling the blade slightly away (pry) or toward (draw) the boat by pushing with the upper hand and using the lower hand more as a pivot.
@eckilson said:
In canoe parlance, they are corrections strokes. To your point, they certainly can turn the boat, but are more often linked with other strokes to initiate a turn (as Kayamedic said). A duffec for example often starts with the stern pry to begin skidding the stern, which makes the bow draw more effective.Maybe we are not taking about the same thing, but I think of a stern pry or draw is a short stroke close to the hull. For a turn, most people would probably use a reverse sweep rather than a bunch of short stern pries. Same with the stern draw – most people would just do a forward sweep.
In whitewater, stern pries and draws are used for subtle corrections at the stern while surfing a wave. While surfing you might also use a hanging (static) stern pry or draw. Sounds like that might be what you are talking about.
The boat you’re in makes all the difference in the world. Dave, I think by now you’ve discovered that your Sterling will do a 180 with a simple bow rudder with nothing else, but a little outside lean and the skeg down. For those who haven’t paddled a Sterling, or something similar, this is not a slow arcing maneuver; it is an almost instant end swap, but not the violent type where you put the boat on edge. My point being that on such boats, anything done at the stern is simply an option and probably not worth a lot of bother. One of my boats in fact and a few others I’ve psddled have almost no reaction to anything done at the stern except to slow the boat down. The exception of course is while surfing.
Personally, I much prefer the efficiency of bow ruddering, but mine is not the typical vertical paddle type; I angle the blade in the water way up by the bow and then apply the appropriate turning angle to the blade. With a little outside edging it gives me at least a 90 degree turn in a single smooth application on my 19 footer, with minimal slowing of the boat.
Yeah Steve, I’ve been having a good time systematically re-evaluating the various turns and maneuvers that I learned a long time ago and have mostly executed in boats that prefer to go straight. The Grand Illusion DOES make some of that look easy. It’s a fun boat to paddle. Want to make sure I am personally proficient enough (e.g., re: turning strokes) to get as much out of the boat as it has to offer.
To me a draw is nothing more than pulling the boat toward the paddle, and a pry is pushing it away from the paddle, but after reading more of your posts, it sounds as if you are talking about rudder strokes.
You can accomplish similar to a rudder stroke but keep forward motion by using a 'J" stroke.
Jack L
@Monkeyhead said:
I’ve found the terminology a bit confusing and maybe inconsistent, and may have misconveyed what I meant. What I was referring to may be more correctly called a stern rudder (?): placing the blade parallel to the boat (I’m a sea kayak paddler - not sure if it’s different in a canoe) and behind you, back towards the stern, and then angling the blade slightly away (pry) or toward (draw) the boat by pushing with the upper hand and using the lower hand more as a pivot.
Yup - exactly the same in a canoe, but more for subtle corrections than big turns.
@Monkeyhead said:
I’ve found the terminology a bit confusing and maybe inconsistent, and may have misconveyed what I meant. What I was referring to may be more correctly called a stern rudder (?): placing the blade parallel to the boat (I’m a sea kayak paddler - not sure if it’s different in a canoe) and behind you, back towards the stern, and then angling the blade slightly away (pry) or toward (draw) the boat by pushing with the upper hand and using the lower hand more as a pivot.
Yes, that’s a very basic “stroke” (control technique), but mainly for times when the boat has a good amount of forward speed compared to the water that supports it, rather than for times when continued application of forward power is needed. In fact, I commonly use it when rowing, especially at high speed going downwind. The thing this method does well is apply a sideways push with minimal drag. The farther back you can induce the ruddering action, the less sideways force is needed, and the less sideways force that is needed, the less drag is required to produce that force (the same is true of “lift”, and this is just lift turned on its side).
In the clip linked below, note the “landmarks” of surface texture and foam on the water passing by the boat which indicate the speed of travel. The need for the “stern rudder” keeping the boat under control is not obvious in the video, but without it, at that speed, there could have been a major wipeout (something that has happened to me, though it was in much larger waves).