maybe not…
"If your paddle's too long, a lot of energy is lost as the blade moves in a semi-circular path rather than straight back close to the boat."
Agree on paddle length, but a wing stroke with a near-vertical paddle is very efficient without being close to the boat.
-"Lock your hips down so you can brace against them."
Racers rotate their pelvic girdles. If their hips were "locked down" they couldn't get any power from their legs.
Excellent!
Though I have to wonder if this is the kind of stuff that makes perfect sense when you already get it and is confusing or misinterpreted before that (like rollers explaining rolling to non-rollers).
We humans are pretty good at over-reading into things to justify/reinforce our preconceived ideas, and basically getting in our own way! L Over-thinking this stuff vs. feeling what’s going on.
Of course that’s true for flatwater
racing, but in both my whitewater kayaks and my lone touring kayak, the tight outfitting needed for possible rolls means that hip girdle motion and leg power are “out.”
Some good stuff there, some less so.
#2, maybe for WW, but zero hip movement is a bit too locked in for touring for me (I don’t like sloppy or tight, and just right is hard to prescribe. It must be found). The hip movement is not unlike like walking/jogging. Your hip’s don’t have to move a lot (unless you’re a runway model) but they do move, and this movement takes strain off the lower back, ensures decent circulation, etc. Isolating any body part will add risk of strain and injury to adjacent parts.
#4. Agree on too long of a paddle being inefficient, and other basic points made, but not the bit about paddle moving straight back. If you look at stop motion photos of paddles at speed they are not pulling back through the water. At speed they largely stay put and pivot around a point just above the blade. Tip moves in an arc. Euro and wing (and single blades too) are same in this, wing just adds a sideways component and it’s lift can actually have it exit slightly forward of entry. Counterintuitive for many, but the images don’t lie. With EP/Wing, keeping upper hand level as it crosses also keeps this arc smaller and the face more perpendicular (high angle from side view rather than front view most focus on). This is where GP really differs as a downward punching can be used to effect (working vs minimizing the arc), whereas it’s really poor technique with EP/Wing and only causes shoveling.
Understanding that the paddle is acting as a couple(lever) lets you take advantage of that an dial in the rest of your technique effectively.
There are two ways to paddle: You can drag you kayak around with the paddle, or you can plant the paddle and drive the kayak past it. Paddle does pretty much the same thing either way, but the use of body and boat is night and day.
No conflict in my sea kayak
With sea kayak I can have room to move and lock in when I want to, to whatever degree I need.
Some rotational or even side to side hip movement has no impact on me rolling it. Even in a tighter Greenland SOF some side room at hip is useful for balance brace and some rolls. Important contact is forward of this, over thighs.
I’ve also found that over time I don’t need to be in contact with the braces all the time, and have learned to let the kayak do it’s thing and dance around me a lot of the time, just contacting at seat and feet unless actively bracing/rolling.
even playing in the surf zone
You should just try freeing up your hips some in your sea kayak. Of course, figure out your roll that way first. But I think you will be amazed at how much control you gain over your sea kayak by freeing up the hips and engaging the legs. Believe it or not, it is absolutely not strictly a flatwater thing.
balance bracing
is easier when you can scootch over to the side in the water.
I don’t like being locked in
The only time I'm locked into thigh braces is when upside down or playing in breakers and I need maximum edge control.
Touring, racing, and even getting in and out through surf my hips are free and power is transfered to the boat via the footplate while edge control is via the butt. I can edge and lean just with my butt and feet as the contact points (at least in the skinny boats that I paddle).
The hips don't move much but their freedom to move with the torso feels integral in generation efficient power.
Whitewater outfitting is tighter. And
I prefer it just as tight in my touring kayak. Greg Barton can wiggle his hips as he needs to, but those of us from the whitewater zone twist from the waist up.
yes to Greyak
I think Greyak has it right by saying this stuff can be both under and over thought,
and very difficult to understand just by words here!
like the locking the hips thing. that might really be something that when seen in action makes sense or something not.
try viewing the video by Greg Barton on the Forward Stroke, not a perfect video but what is good there is that they show you how to have both a powerful stroke and an endurance stroke in the real world, not just for racing.
you will notice by viewing it that torso rotation, hip engagement etc. is NOT as dramatic looking as you may be thinking, but done correctly is very very important. You will be able to see just what the legs, hips, etc do to provide the foundation for coiling up and uncoiling. It will begin to make sense to you.
and don't let anyone here tell you this stuff only matters for racers! Just wait till you get in major weather or seas or you get someone who is injured and in need of a desperate tow back and you will just thank yourself for learning this.
you will also realize that a very dramatic % of kayakers develop hand, wrist, elbow, and shoulder problems that STOP their kayaking careers only because they did not learn this stuff.
you can really help yourself here!
Rowing has other issues
A former boyfriend who competed in collegiate rowing told me that, at casual sport levels, rowing injuries are rare. Crank up the mileage and effort, and the lower-back injuries start showing up. That is actually why I was wondering if over-rotating could cause similar problems.
No worries about overthinking it
Though I get occasional fits of overthinking, mostly I tend to rely on seat-of-the-pants judgment. Hence the experimentation on the water. I trust how I feel and how the boat is reacting more than anything else, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement.
Since almost nobody I know is interested in this subject, it’s refreshing to see the number of responses here.
Obviously WW is different…
... except in your case! ;)
Do as you please of course, different strokes and all that, but I have to suspect that tight WW style outfitting (unless your definition of tight is someone else's loose) would be limiting both your performance and enjoyment in a sea kayak in all but MAYBE tide race/surf type play scenarios. I'd still want a bit of wiggle room there.
I had a chance to paddle
I had a chance to paddle my brother’s NF Legend last fall. It had a good balance between allowing room to really drive the boat forward in open water and power into surfing runs but then snug into the thigh braces to really put the boat up on edge and carve when needed.
It seems like the boats that are really best for tide races and rock gardens are more like stretched WW boats with bulkheads and hatches. Those boats feel too restrictive for really covering ground in open water. But then I’m hooked on warm water and surfskis so I’m pretty biased in that regard.
No such a thing!!!
To answer your question, there is no such a thing as too much torso rotation -not even at the elite/Olympic level.
However, in a wide boats such as sea kayaks, you won’t be able to fully rotate do to boat width.
Dream on. And read others’ posts.
I also use the arc
with good rotation… sometimes I bring it straight back too if I’m just warming up… there are a few other techniques too that can be identified with good video and a good instructor to improve all that… but for the sake of this discussion a high angle is a high angle and the amount of arc (which I agree is a good) is more of a fine tuning of the high angle that needs to incorporate other techniques…
I also didn’t mention the arc which indicates good technique, so thanks for mentioning that. Sometimes we can’t include every aspect in a short post.
“Locked down” is inaccurate
I take it back! Bad Trilliumlake! I was responding to Pikabike’s statement:
“I am finding that the harder and more slippery a seat, the better. Which is too bad because two of my sea kayaks have foam seats. Fortunately, slippery silk-like nylon shorts with slippery liner brief work beautifully even with the grabby seats.”
From this it sounded like she’s rotating so much below the waist that her hips aren’t braced enough to leverage the stroke correctly, especially when she said,
“I have very small wrists and…they’ve acted up at times after paddling all day in strong wind.”
From this I surmised that she’s pulling with her arms to compensate for lack of leverage from her hips. I shouldn’t have said she should “lock down” her hips; “braced better” would be more accurate.
If I had time I’d incorporate everyone’s comments into my spiel and make a teaching video called “It Came From P.Net”. It would basically show a group of totally confused paddlers sitting paralyzed in their boats while a bunch of experts in lawn chairs argued on the shore. The climax scene would be where the experts kill each other off with wing paddles, whereupon the paddlers look at each other, shrug, and paddle off into the sunset to music from “The Good, the Bad & the Ugly.”
Wrong-O
I’ll address your earlier comments one by one, since I didn’t bother then and you are now resorting to guesswork:
“2) You shouldn’t rotate in your seat to get enough rotation. If your hips are moving, you’re bracing almost entirely with your legs on the thigh braces and your feet on the footpegs. The result is sciatica, crampy thigh muscles, foot pain & numbness. Your entire lower body s/b braced including your hips and butt, which will absorb more of the pressure and spare your legs & feet. And give you more leverage.”
*** Nope. I have literally never had sciatica, cramped thigh muscles, foot pain, or numbness. My legs touch the thigh braces on the uppermost leg movement without pressing hard on them. The boat stays flat, no rocking side to side as it would if I did what you are assuming I do.
“3) If you have hand/wrist strain after paddling hard, you may be unconsciously pulling with your arms to get more power. This goes along with not having your hips braced - you can’t get enough leverage from your thigh braces and footpegs, so you’re using your arms to pull the paddle, rather than just holding it in place while your torso pushes it.”
*** Sorry but your assumptions are wrong again. The only time there’s wrist pain is after hours of very strong wind, and it’s NOT from pulling on the blade. It’s from gripping the paddle too tightly at such times.
“4) How long is your paddle? When I switched to a high-angle blade it was incredible how much faster I could go. If your paddle’s too long, a lot of energy is lost as the blade moves in a semi-circular path rather than straight back close to the boat.”
Paddle is 205cm, which fits according to Werner’s fit table. If I could try a 200 cm paddle, I would, but the 205cm is pretty good. It’s a lot better than the 215cm I used to use a few years ago.
“So to summarize, I’d suggest trying the following:
-Wind up more at the start of the stroke. Blade should go in the water while you’re facing across the boat.
-Lock your hips down so you can brace against them.
-Higher-angle stroke, use quicker cadence instead of more force to get speed.”
*** I’m already doing all these things. My OP asked whether there’s such a thing as more rotation than is beneficial. I don’t know how you twisted that general question into a wholly different one.
That is not a Fit Kit
That is simply adjustable outfitting (something that all bikes have). Not the same as devices/methods meant to accurately find the right settings for all the components.