Hope this isn’t a downer of a topic (no pun intended).
I’m familiar with the “gasp reflex” concept, but this SDS seems a little more elusive. My interest was peaked when reading the book that came with my newly acquired Maine Island Trail Association membership (awesome organization btw).
This mentions cold water entering the ear which “causes you to lose your sense of direction”. I haven’t been able to find other references to this, except perhaps a few academic papers that are behind paywalls.
The reason for my interest is that I’ve had this happen twice - I refer to it as “underwater vertigo”. On both occasions I was not wearing earplugs, but also the water was not cold. The first time was when “proving I could wet exit” prior to a WW class and was a very, very unpleasant experience. Unless you’ve had vertigo it’s hard to describe how horrible it is, even on land. Being underwater and not knowing which way is up is a bad feeling, added to the awful nausea and head spinning. I can see how it could feasibly lead to drowning.
Second time it happened when I was practicing on my own, but I was somewhat prepared and managed to deal with it much better.
Since then, wearing earplugs and avoiding large angular momentum when capsizing to practice rolls, I’ve avoided a recurrence. I’d like to think I’m building up some immunity, but who knows.
Note this is not the same as the nausea feeling after multiple rolls - perhaps as divine compensation, I do not get that at all. I’ve done 40 rolls in a session and had not the slightest nausea.
So, in my cases, I’m not exactly sure what the cause was. Was it the (not very) cold water, or the head rotation arc? In any case, I wear earplugs for any kind of practice sessions now, and will probably wear them on normal paddles too in anything other than flat calm. I’ve also been eating a lot of candied ginger, which, perhaps apocryphally, can help with such things - it’s a good excuse anyway!
Anyone else experienced this, or have any insight?
Yes I have experienced that very thing. When I first started to try to teach myself to roll (no other choice where I live) I would make very little progress but I’d just keep trying and looking at videos to try to figure it out. The one day I got a roll and it was so easy it shocked me. But the very next day I tried again and I not only could not do it, but that day was worse then any day I’d tried in probably a year. Some days it seemed like I lacked coordination only but there were days when I’d loose all sense of up and down. It was very concerning but what I’d do is force myself to relax and watch for bubbles to have something to look at and know they were going up.
I can go weeks with no such problem and then one day for no reason I understand, the sensations of up or down vanish when I am underwater. It’s weird. It was a bit scarry the first few times but now I know what to do if it happens.
The way I have dealt with it is learning body positioning. I just ignore it when it happens and go to a familiar body position which brings me back to the surface. Sometime I’ll miss a roll when that feeling happens, but if I miss the roll and I can get to the surface I regain “up and down” perception in 2 ways that seem to work for me every time.
The 2 drills that work are to do a “hug” on your foredeck and pop your skirt, then push down on the combing like you were pushing yourself out of a manhole, Don’t worry about direction. Just do the body movements. You’ll come to the surface every time if you have on your PFD,
Or, — lay back against your rear deck (if your rear deck is not too high) and touch your head to the deck, then do a sweep with both your body and paddle to one side. You need a climbing angel to make this work, but by practicing the position with the paddle and knowing the feel of the hands you can get that angle even when you can’t feel the up-direction.
For beginners I would have to guess the 'hug and eject" is the more reliable of the 2 techniques, because if you do the exit and you are wearing your PFD you ARE GOING TO COME UP, regardless of the fact you can’t feel which way up is.
The sweep works every time because If I break the surface with eyes of ears, even for a second, I then get the feeling of up and down back instantly.
Some things that might cause vertigo on the water. Vertigo can be caused when tiny calcium carbonate crystals (otoconia) become displaced in the inner ear, causing brief, intense vertigo triggered by changes in head position. It’s called benign paroxysmal positional vertigo (BPPV). I have experienced it once but not on the water. It is very disorienting. Also being dehydrated can induce vertigo. There is a way to move the crystals called the Eply Maneuver but not something you would do in the water. Avoiding what you eat like salt, caffeine, alcohol, and foods high in tyramine. Dehydration is another so stay hydrated. Complex carbs can help keep blood sugar up. B-vitamins, and magnesium support nerve and inner ear health.
I like what szihn wrote about dealing with it under water. A PFD will bring you to the surface.
Thanks guys!
That first time it happened I was in full thrashing around, oncoming panic mode, and swimming downwards - it felt like an age. Even on dry land it is one of the most awful feelings (first time I got it I was pretending to be a dog shaking my head ) On both occasions on the water I was already wet exiting - it was before I had a roll. I I think I’d deal with it better now, mind over matter, and let the PFD take over, but when the whole world is spinning violently on two axes it’s almost overwhelming. If you weren’t at least slightly prepared for it, I can see a disaster happening.
Castoff - your notes on dehydration, caffeine, alcohol etc are helpful. I’ll be sure to pay attention to them before any big paddling day (good idea anyway). And the fact that you regain the sense of UP after a roll attempt is encouraging szihn! I was so spooked I was even fighting the PFD that first time like “it’s not working!” . I’ll try the deck hugging and the laying back next time I playing (I’m quite happy upside down these days).
I do still wonder where this note in the MITA book came from - is it a known cause of drowning (how would we know?).
Oh, I think also when I was searching the board here I did found one deeply buried comment that someone wears the Doc’s earplugs anytime in cold water for this reason (but again, it wasn’t cold for me, so…). I wanna say it was one of the ladies - Willowleaf maybe.
Hasn’t happened since, and I’ve done about 240 rolls in the last 2 months, so I’m hopeful, but it will always be in the back of my mind.
I also have Doc’s earplugs but rarely use them. I got them after I had the vertigo happen to me when I got out of bed one morning. It persisted enough it was a week before I felt good enough to paddle.
Wow, that’s a bad one. My worst cases have had me feeling yuck for the rest of the day.
My ex-wife had Menear’s Disease. I was probably not as sympathetic as I should have been
I had vestibular neuritis which originally was originally diagnosed as BPPV, but the symptoms became much worse. I started with a trip to the emergency room, unable to walk and throwing up profusely. Overtime most of the symptoms went away, I did not feel safe driving long distances for about 4 months, because attacks would occur suddenly with no warning, and I would not be able to stand or keep from throwing up. In time I learned that quickly turning my head to the side or looking straight up would trigger an attack. I still feel dizzy sometimes and I only have 10% hearing in the affected ear. Early on I tried swimming in 55 F water, with no problems and rolling if I did not jerk my head caused no problems,but I had done both for several times a week for several years. Cold water or other stimulation in the inner ear can cause your balance system to be disoriented, I have heard that if you practice immersion often this will go way. I understand why you might be reluctant to experiment with dunkings in cold water.
“Sudden drowning syndrome” seems to be an old phrase from the 1980’s and coined by the US Coast Guard. Today it falls under the “Cold Shock” (Stage 1) stage of cold water immersion.
I’ve experienced vertigo many times, fortunately all but one time it was pretty brief and triggered by head movement as castoff describes. The one exception was on my motorcycle, where it took a few minutes for my balance to come back. I’ve had it happen to me while playing sports, resulting in some hilarious wipeouts (so say my friends) and a few minor injuries. I’ve had it happen underwater while snorkeling and scuba diving, and for whatever reason it doesn’t bother me as much as on land and it didn’t feel like a hazard. Maybe because I was already using visual cues to swim? I’ve had it happen while practicing rolling at the beach, but I haven’t experienced it in a narrow sea or touring kayak over open water (yet). I’m expecting it will be much worse because I need my sense of balance to stay upright. Unlike on the motorcycle, I don’t have two big gyroscopes keeping me upright.
When people seem perfectly healthy but have something wrong that doesn’t show to others, it is common for others to misjudge the extend of the disability. It’s understandable. I know from my own experience. The upside is it’s nice to be considered OK most of the time.
BPPV is a bitch. I acquired mine by getting pitched off my bicycle while commuting to work in my mid 20’s (few cyclists wore helmets in the 1970s) and smashing the left side of my skull to such an extent that I woke up in the ER as they were cutting off my clothes and discussing how blood and spinal fluid were leaking out of my left ear. Since then, even though the Eply maneuver sometimes works, I have not been able to ride a roller coaster and had to drop out of Aikido because tumbling moves resulted in instant nausea and the room spinning followed by 24 to 48 hours of feeling off balance. The worst was being on the top step of an 8 foot ladder working overhead during my years as a construction electrician when one of my coworkers came by and asked if I had some parts he needed – with my hands occupied I made the mistake of rapidly jerking my head towards where my stockpile was sitting as I said “over that way”. Instant intense vertigo and I had to drop my tools and grip the ladder as the room seemed to whirl around. Managed to slither down and had to sit with my head between my knees for a while to regain control – felt like crap and had to ask to be reassigned to ground level work for rest of the shift.
I have learned to control movements (like rapidly turning my head or standing up too fast) that can trigger it. But the condition has greatly impeded my ability to develop a reliable kayak roll – about half the time I’ve tried it on day paddles I end up triggering the reaction, which essentially ends the outing. I have had so many opportunities at the QajaqUSA skills camps I have been attending for 8 years now to get one-on-one coaching in rolling from some world class instructors (including Dubside), but my anxiety about being rendered dizzy and miserable for hours holds me back from taking advantage of that training. I’m able to smoothly complete the last half of a roll (recovering onto the stern deck from a full balance brace) without a problem but I worry that my dread would cause me to move too abruptly once upside down and trigger the dizzying scourge.
Anybody else on here with BPPV who can report on their experience with rolling? Mickp’s experience gives me some hope. (BTW, it wasn’t me with the Doc’s earplugs.) I don’t have trouble with water in the ears, even cold water. I finished the PADI dive certification course without triggering it and it has never hit me swimming or diving, or even capsizing and having to self rescue. It’s just rapid twisting head motions.
My approach is that we tend to be creatures of habit. If you always wear it, you have it when you need it. One complaints is the PFD is uncomfortable or to hot to wear. I respect the notion that good swimmers and experienced paddlers feel competent to handle adverse circumstances. The problem is that experienced kayakers typically paddle under harsher conditions. The danger zone is when the paddler make a conscious decision to think he or she can handle the grey zone between an easy day and dangerous conditions. It only takes one misjudgement.
Wow Willowleaf. Having this hit while up a ladder would be scary (although I think RedMC getting it while riding a motorbike perhaps wins).
It’s really sad that it has prevented you from enjoying the Qajaq camps - with Dubside himself no less.
When I started on my rolling journey this year I was very nervous about this. That first time was fresh in my mind as there had been a second or two of real panic. My approach for practice was to use a sculling brace (at first with a paddle float) and capsize very slowly. I had no issues with the roll up, it was the capsize rotation that seemed to cause it. Starting off with the paddle float was a big factor also - I quickly got comfortable upside down, no rapid movements needed (in fact, the slower the better), 'cause with a float you can always get back up, even if it’s ugly. (Getting the float to stay on the GP was a different story, but I worked something out!)
Then, much later, without the float, I carefully tried one of the normal Greenland “full” offside capsize rolls, but made sure I really got my head down toward the deck to reduce that “rotational moment” on my head. I wore snorkel goggles too and kept eyes open through the whole thing. No vertigo!
Since then I’ve been able to gradually get more upright for the capsize, and close eyes underwater, all with no problems (wearing ear plugs too, but that’s just a good idea anyway).
The only other time I had an issue was early on, and once again I was practicing a “full capsize”, (without head down) in order to drill a wet exit. For me it seem to be the combination of sitting upright and going over quickly that was the trigger. Fortunately this time was much milder.
I console myself that in a real capsize (I’m not a WW guy), I’d likely be bracing in some way and would be able to slow the capsize. It seems the exact head motion that triggers this may vary, although I know shaking my head can do it too.
SeaDart - I realize that I’m lucky that it’s not worse…I really feel for you and Willowleaf, knowing just how horrible it is. I’ve had 4 total occurrences and would like to never have another. I’m also hopeful that my rolling work this year, and if I keep practicing every couple of weeks, I may build up some immunity.
Thank you so much, Mickp, for all that feedback on how you’ve worked through your challenges with BPPV! I realize I should probably share my problem with one of the coaches – it’s likely they have had other students with similar vertigo issues. might also ask my doc if there is an anti-vertigo med i might bring to camp for backup in case I have an episode.
Besides Dubside, I’m hoping the excellent rolling coach (and former champion gymnast), Javier Costano, is again at Delmarva this year. His group clinic offering land-side guided practice last time in precise positioning and bodily awareness relative to the boat during the basic back and front finishing Greenland rolls revealed a lot about controlling the maneuvers.
Willowleaf, yes, I think that’s a good idea. I did take one lesson early on in my rolling journey this year. It was from a WW instructor (I live in WW land) and I shared my fears with her. She was very understanding and accommodated during the training. It’s clear we’re not alone in having concerns about this issue. I imagine the folks at Qajaq would not be hearing it for the first time (plus, something tells me they’re likely to be empathetic folks). I’d definitely share - it might lead to revelation! (Maybe I’ll make it to one myself one day!)
Also, for those of us who want to minimize sudden head movements, the Standard Greenland Roll is ideal. Slow, smooth - I refer to the motion as “slither”!
I enjoy watching YT videos from “See Steve Sea Kayak” - he paddles in Maine, close to where my daughter lives so I’m becoming familiar with the area and have even paddled a couple of "his"places. Anyway, he recently posted a couple of vids on his self-challenge to do “1000 rolls in a month”. SSSK 1000 rolls
My (rambling) point here is that I was amazed at how many commenters said “I get nausea after 3 rolls”. Made me feel good in that, while I think vertigo is worse and potentially more dangerous, at least I don’t get “normal” nausea at all, even after 40+ rolls. Be thankful for what we can I guess!
What you have is probably not BPPV but actual damage to the vestibular region on that side of your head. If I am careful I can roll, and I have been thrashed and maytagged like a rag doll in the surf without an attack. If I am parked next to a car that backs up and I look at it from my left shoulder, I get a terrible sensation that I am rolling forward, my ENT thought this was funny, not much empathy from most people. When I was lying on the kitchen floor heaving for hours into a bucket my cats came and curled up with me and would lick me. More compassion from a cat than an MD specialist. The problem is that when the problem is caused by damage to the bones, inner ear structures and vestibular tissue and vessels etc. everyone will have different degrees of vertigo and triggers, so very hard to predict for each person.
) On both occasions on the water I was already wet exiting - it was before I had a roll. I I think I’d deal with it better now, mind over matter, and let the PFD take over, but when the whole world is spinning violently on two axes it’s almost overwhelming. If you weren’t at least slightly prepared for it, I can see a disaster happening.
. I’ll try the deck hugging and the laying back next time I playing (I’m quite happy upside down these days).
