Responsive not hard to control?
I believe what you are saying is that boats which are responsive and manuverable are not hard to control as such, but the need to be in tune with the boat and respond promptly and subtly is more important than with a boat which is more of a blunt instrument or it will seem hard to control if not out of control. My prejudicial view is such boats are a joy to paddle, but you cannot just blindly apply techniques and expect everything to just work as you can with more staid boats. Of course some would say that makes such boats challenging or not good instructing/skill development platforms or perhaps not good for very challenging conditions. And they might well be right.
P&H Skeg upgrade
I checked in with the guys at P&H about new skegs and plastic compounds. It sounds like there IS a new skeg in a stiffer material. This will be available as a free upgrade to paddlers who feel that the current skeg is too flexible.
The skegs are not in the country yet, but should be within the month.
If you are interested in replacing your skeg, you should contact Dinver at P&H/Pyranha USA. You will need to provide him with a serial number and proof of purchase.
Contact information is at the P&H website at the following address. Make sure that you use the USA contact information.
http://www.phseakayaks.com/contact.html
But–make sure you move the seat back, too!
I hope that this is helpful. See you on the water.
Best,
Brian Day
P&H Midwest Team
www.BigWaterSmallBoat.com
I’m both a better and worse paddler
I’m both a better and worse paddler for the boats that I have paddled. My transitional boat was a Liquid Logic Pisgah - highly maneuverable, no skeg or rudder. From that I moved to the IK Expedition - locks in well with the skeg but I purposefully paddled without for most of the first year with the boat.
I think my understanding of how a boat responds and my ability to make a boat track both benefited greatly from the types of boats that I chose. What I find now though is that aspects of my paddling - the ability to hold a really agressive edge and the power of my sweep strokes are not as good as they could be; because they haven’t had to be.
So now if I paddle a more “mainstream” boat (if there is such a thing), I find them very forgiving and beyond the most extreme wind don’t see the need for skeg. But I also find them much harder to turn, particularly in non-dynamic environments and leave me scratching my head sometimes when I perform a stroke and it just doesn’t come around the way I expect.
All boats are a compromise and I think that my paddling style has evolved to match the boats I’ve spent the most time in. Now it’s time to fix some of the weak areas. Another good argument for more boats in the fleet!
Dinver is an assett to P&H. Very
prompt and very accomodating.
Dogmaticus
Denver and P&H
support is excellent. I bought a used P&H that had a few spider cracks. They ordered the gel coat from UK to my house for $20. Also kinked a skeg and they sent one pronto for a very reasonable price. (old skeg)
I always enjoy seeing them a the kayak festival and they are very prompt, organized and friendly.
Both P&H and Valley have been very good about responding to emails or calls from the US and UK.
I would like to comment on the Cetus but haven’t paddled one.
surfing/cetus/following seas
Brian, at the REQUEST of my wife the CETUS stays at home. I have moved the seat back 1in., and load all of my backup gear ~2olbs into the rear compartment then carry food -thermos-small extras in the day hatch. I do believe there has been a difference in following seas, the boat seems to wander much slower. I hope this is not just my imagination, I want this wandering to go away…far away! The fact that P+H is reworking the skeg tells me this is an up and comming problem for the boat as more people paddle it, good on P+H to jump on it! My new skeg is being sent to me from P+H.
Horst Nolle
New Skeg Blade
Glad to hear that you have a new skeg blade on the way. I hope that you enjoy paddling the boat in the future.
Best regards,
Brian Day
Midwest P&H Team Guy
Skegs in following sea
The Cetus is one of my favourite kayaks in a following sea. Here are a few thoughts that might help. 'Nother long post I’m afraid but might be worth reading. Or just take the punchlines and get paddling; go diagonal, surf, do anything but slow down speed is the answer.
First thought, maybe Bill Mason inspired. You need to be moving faster or slower then the water. Trouble is in a following sea as waves overtake you, you are effectively faster than the water one second and slower the next this radically alters the way the boat behaves from moment to moment and many of the suggested fixes seem to be based on a kayak moving consistantly faster than the water and may even exagerate this effect.
Broaching is caused when the wave catches up with you causing the stern to pivot around the bow. Realeasing the bow will help but locking the stern in can make the situation worse. The more skeg is used the more the stern grips the more the kayak will broach. Bigger better skegs may work to counteract weather cocking but may not be the answer to broaching. Fins on a surf craft work when the craft is moving faster than the water which usually means a diagonal run not perpendicular to the wave.
The bow or stern can be released by altering trim, altering position on the wave and/or altering angle on the wave.
Trim. Shifting weight (body or laod) to the stern can release the bow but can also make the stern grip more (but generally not as bad as a skeg).
Position on wave. If you are broaching it is because the bow is in the trough and the stern is above it on the wave, you are locked in, trying to steer while in this position is pointless. Using stern rudder you may avoid broaching long enough to get on top of the wave to release ends but will need to accelerate again before the next wave hits you. A combination power/sweep stroke may slow the broach while you accelerate down the wave and get the bow out in front or even better get you running diagonal actually surfing the wave in control.
Angle. Running perpendicular to the wave will make the bow dig in more, run diagonal (like any good surfer) and the bow will stay looser (try and keep a little stern in to avoid spinning out skeg may help at this point but I find I dont need it), you will have more control, more fun and you will be moving quicker. A straight line is not always the quickest way to get from A to B, I often use a deliberate zig zag rather than running straight (especially in steeper waves) to get where I’m going with less effort and more enjoyment.
What I actually do. Get as close as possible to the same speed as the wave, speed is your friend, sometimes it may be necessary to go a little off course to get the speed you need in order to get control and back on course. Use edge, body weight/trim and control strokes if needed while the kayak is surfing but idealy the paddle stays out of the water ready for the next power stroke (Stern draw is one of my favourites but what ever gives control with minimal loss of speed). Power stroke to maintain speed or accelerate while not surfing. It may take me 3 or 4 waves working hard to get up to speed but once at speed less effort to stay there. Its fun and I’m getting where I’m going.
Surf the wave dont get surfed.
broaching
Slowcoach, that was one of the best posts I ever read on this forum. Very informative.
Except…
even if the wave is overtaking you, your boat is still moving forward through the water. Skegs do seem to help keep the boat pointed ahead, my experience, anyway.
Mike
my experience too
though size and steepness may change the best tactic. I normally find that the problem starts with the bow digging in while the stern is more free floating and thus pushed down wave. By using the skeg I do seem to keep things straighter. I can imagine if your boat does start to broach even with a skeg that there may be a tipping point where the skeg will increase the broach.
really good stuff, thanks
New skeg
Briab D.,
I just received the new skeg and put it into the CETUS yesterday, and am looking forward to paddling this Monday. The new skeg is ~ 50% stiffer than the old one ( which I am keeping ).
If this skeg does what I am hoping for, the CETUS is going to dethrone the NDK Explorer, no doubt in my mind.
Horst Nolle
New Skeg
Sounds good. I hope it does the trick. But, I would play around with some of the suggestions for dynamic surfing that slowcoach offered above, too. You may find that you are able to use the skeg less and less.
Best,
Brian Day
P&H Midwest Team Guy
Nav Regs
If the USCG wrote nave regs regarding kayak surfing they would say something like:
Your kayak surfs better than you do. Adapt!
Dogmaticus
Horst, did you get out? how was it?
I think you have hit on something
Let me give you the benefit of my many years of kayaking experience. It is much easier to surf following seas than it is to surf seas coming from forward.
surfing
I replaced the old skeg, the new skeg is ? 50% stiffer thant the old one. I started putting all of my extra gear into the rear compartment,and food, camera, binocular etc; into the day hatch, and I moved the backband/pedals back ~ 2 in.!
I was able to surf some good sized boat swells, ~2’, and the boat surfed predictably and fast, it responded well when edged, the only thing missing was wind of around 30mph on my back.
Horst
surfing
Hey slowcoach, thanks for the reply.
I replaced my old skeg, and am loading the CETUS much more stern heavy than I am used to with other boats I’ve paddled. Have not had the strong winds as in the past month or so but have surfed some good boat wakes of ~ 2’ and the boat seems to respond way better and predictably, only thing missig is the strong stern winds. I think the problem may be resolved, I am keeping the boat for sure, not mad at it anymore 
Horst
new skeg/surfing
I finally got out into some pretty strong winds a couple of days ago here in Puget Sound >35mph!
The new skeg worked markedly better than the stock one.
I did not weigh down the CETUS stern. The new skeg is the answere.