Good luck
but you might want to call Swift. They have changed layups in the past few years I believe.
Current catalogs alas dont tell the whole tale…Remember what we learned about Bell layups from CEW?
Good luck…
Sincerely mean that.
Hope it is everything you hope it will be for you.
Nicely made, and beautiful canoes.
BOB
Osprey
After just finishing the trip with Tommy C1, I wouldn’t want to use a composite boat for tripping in mixed whitewater / flats. I didn’t see any major advantage of the Osprey compared to my Yellowstone Solo. We were about even in speed in the flats and were both able to run most of the rapids dry. As my boat slid/glided over the rocks the Osprey made a screetchy zippering sound. I’m not sure how the osprey would look stomped out after a pin - I’m glad we didn’t get the chance to find out. Perhaps in higher water the Osprey would have been drier.
One major advantage of the Osprey is that it has space in the bow for storing small items like houseplants and American flags.
Hate that zippering sound!
I agree with you on composite vs. royalex. My only only caveat is, don’t try a Kevlar boat. That stiffness is a feeling you won’t soon forget. In fact, it may just haunt you.
Glad to hear you guys had such a good trip. Would love to have joined you.
…Jeff-B, water-level on your trip…
certainly highlighted the YS’s versatility. I can’t think of any other boat that would’ve done both the rocky narrows and flats as well…y/n?
Good to see the weather cooperated. Praying for more rain…
SteveD
Jeff didn’t hit any rocks
– Last Updated: May-12-10 5:23 AM EST –
Least ways not hard like me and Jim did. Jim's got a nice crease in his royalex boat. Not much you can do about that. Not much you can do about the scratches in a royalex boat either.
I tore up some gel coat pretty good. Those will get filled. Since I'm doing that I guess I'll see what I can do with the scratches I've put on that boat in the last 5 years. Got a few of those.
I wore out my royalex Outrage. Pretty close to wore out my royalex Explorer too.
Based on this experience I don't think Royalex has any great advantage over the Swift Expedition layup.
I do agree that Jeff's Yellowstone did almost everything the Osprey did and did it well. Can't blame him for not wanting to pin his boat can I? He certainly picked some better lines than I did in several places. Sometimes it's the paddler.
OTOH His line at Great Falls was pretty exciting. Still he came through that surprisingly dry. Sometimes it's the boat.
i’m gonna disagree with this…
– Last Updated: May-11-10 9:03 PM EST –
I actually have owned both an Osprey and a YS solo in royalex...and a Wildfire composite.
I had paddled the Osprey and the YS solo back to back and I can tell you absolutely that there is a big difference between the two.
The Osprey is hands down more efficient on the water and more maneuverable as well.
I did not use a GPS to compare becuase it was not even close.
I have used a GPS and done a fair amount of back to back comparison and time trials between the Osprey and the Merlin (Merlin certainly faster than the YS solo) and found that the difference between the Merlin and the Osprey was fairly narrow. The Merlin was a tad faster, but not really by much. And in time trials on the same course paddled back to back I ended up within seconds on about a 1.5 mile course. Think I even did it twice.
And...the kevlar boat has a HUGELY different feel. There is really no comparison.
The kevlar Osprey accelerates effortlessly and has a much more intimate feel on water than the YS solo.
Differences in boat speed and maneuverability can't really be measured by assessing the fact that two folks were able to paddled side by side over a trip. That doesn't necessarily mean that you were both expending the same energy. Or that you ran the same gates doesn't mean that both boats are equally responsive or maneuverable.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything here so please don't take it that way.
Paddler skill and fitness is another variable.
I guess the bottom line though is that I can pretty categorically state that the kevlar Osprey and royalex YS solo are very, very different in their performance and I state that objectively.
I actually sold my first Osprey and KEPT the YS solo in its place. I regretted it. I only kept the YS becuse I wanted a plastic boat I could feel better about running rapids in, but fully udnerstood the vast difference in performance between the two boats.
The Osprey is unique in that it has the speed of the Merlin and greater maneuverability that the YS solo....
HOwever.....the YS solo does track a lot better than the Osprey. And has better primary stability...but less defined and solid secondary. And yes the Osprey makes noise when paddled on flats due to skid plates. Put skid plates on YS and sounds same (had one like that too).
Matt
What happened to the composite Wildfire?
I think I would take that over the Osprey if I was looking for a composite river boat.
(By the way, how many boats have you owned???)
Black Gold Wildfire vs Expedition Osprey
That’s a comparison I’d love to make on a trip like I just got back from.
With it’s symetrical rocker, I hope the Wildfire might turn a bit better in the rapids.
It would be good to know if the Black Gold is as tough as Swift’s Expedition Kevlar.
Maybe if I hit the lottery…
Wildfire…
Well I sold the composite Wildfire. I paddled it twice and really did not like it. I was very surprised.
As far as Wildfire / YS solo is concerned I had a royalex one that I converted by putting 2.75 inch longer thwarts in (moved amidships about 5-6 inches as well). Totally changed the boat and made it a very sweet handling boat with more rocker, flare and better secondary stabiltity. After paddlign that the composite one was a disappointment despite the symmetrical rocker that I thought would give it a much looser feel.
HOw many boats have I owned…???
Well…upwards of 20 sea kayaks, and about 4-5 whitewater kayaks. Many of the sea kayaks were duplicated models though where I owned a model and sold it for something else and then decided to go back to that model again etc. I did that more than a few times. Sometimes you dont realize that you may already have what you are really looking for but you won’t know until you try something else. (NDK explorer I have owned a few times).
For canoes I have owned the following:
Bell CJ Special
Bell Wildfire royalex
Bell YS solo royalex
Bell Wildfire composite
Mad River Freedom Solo
Mad River Guide
Nova Craft Prospector 16
Swift Osprey
Bell Merlin (more than one)
Bell Magic (more than one)
Wenonah Advantage
Nova Craft Super Nova
I think that’s it.
Do I have a problem…probably. But I have learned a loooootttt about boats and boat design and about my preferences etc. A lot of it is largely a matter of me figuring out what my true applications are going to be and what characterisitics I am looking for. Then matching the boat to that desire.
Despite owning so many boats I really do paddle them very extensive before making a decision on them. I live on the water and paddle every day pretty much year round. I am pretty analytical and test boats back to back quite a bit. Actually many of my neighbors have asked me if I test boats for a magazine or something given that they always see me dragging boats down to the water and putting them trhough all kinds of paces. While I don’t keep written notes I have a pretty good memory of all the boats I have owned and their traits.
Right now though my current fleet which I am fairly happy with consists of the following (and this is from lots of narrowing it down):
Kayaks:
NDK Explorer (for really windy and rough water, tripping, longer distances)
NDK Romany Surf (playing around, surfing in moving water such as tide races and rivers, maybe some beach surfing but hard to tell if it is better than the Explorer for this…jury still out on that)
Canoes:
Prospector for a tandem
-Magic for open water
-Mad River Guide for Class II and III for day trips or for trips that don’t have a lot of flats (slooow)
-and soon to be an Osprey to bridge gap between Magic and Guide for trips with mixed moving and flat water where the Magic may not have enough maneuverability but where the Guide is just too plodding and slow.
Matt
Your missing at least one
Gee Matt don’t you need a true Whitewater canoe?
I’d suggest an Encore or Outrage X.
Sorry I’m an enabler as well as the unrepentent owner of a pretty big harem myself.
Great discussion-my 2 cents
I own an expidition kevlar Osprey and it would be the last solo boat I would sell. I don’t use it a lot anymore because I paddle flatwater or narrow small creeks mostly and now have other boats more specifically suited,but the Osprey would do it all and I would choose it for rough big flatwater or downriver current. I am confused on current Swift layups also,my boat is an old x rental boat bought from Swift. I was told they developed the expidition kavlar layup for rental boats origanally-it’s tough! It is heavy! I have also thought that a lighter but tough Osprey would be my ideal can only have only 1 boat choice. One more thing, changing trim using the sliding seat has a big effect on this boats charistics which is why it comes that way.With the seat slid back and the stern in the water it tracks firm,but slid foreward it spins with little effort. I have paddled with a composite Wildfire and switched boats. They are very different,the Widlfire is a better freestyle boat but definatly slower. My Osprey is one boat that I never forget what I’m paddling-it feels unique.
Guess it turned into 5cents,Turtle
I keep hearing “Guide is great
… in class III.” Can’t imagine that verdict is going to last long. 
I have a buyer for that Guide Matt. When you’re ready …
whitewater and Guide…
I really like the Guide. I had the Freedom Solo previously and liked it but its construction sucked. Way too flimsy, flexy, etc. The Guide is solid.
The Guide handles great and takes on Class III rapids with ease. It’s a little wet in some of the drops but not too bad.
It is not as dry as the Supernova but the Supernova was just a huge boat and too big for me. The Guide fits me better and I find it more controllable as a result.
I have ordered a cookes cover for the guide that will cover up to the thwart to help keep some water out on drops.
As to a real whitewater boat I am trying to avoid going that route.
For whatever reason I just feel like I would prefer to paddle whitewater in a more traditional touring canoe. Just seems more fitting. Bill Mason did it. A whitewater canoe looks like fun but maybe too easy…???
I don’t know.
Same reason I don’t want to get a true surf kayak for playing in the surf zone and prefer to do it in a more traditional sea kayak.
Might as well run rapids in a boat that you would actually use for tripping.
Matt
I can see that
But if you ever want to dabble at a surf yak, I’ve got a Cobra Strike I’d let go. I don’t really use it enough to justify keeping it. It goes with me to Ocean City, MD once a year.
To easy…
No way. What it does is open up an entirely new world of water to you. The micro eddies at the top of wet drops, thin lines through tight z-turns, etc. I understand where you’re coming from, but please don’t lead others that may not know better to believe that a “versatile” boat like the Guide can do what a specially designed whitewater craft can do. I was there. Paddled a Supernova for 2 years but it would not do what I needed on tight western PA streams.
Randy
Might as well run rapids in a boat that
"Might as well run rapids in a boat that you would actually use for tripping."
I’m thinking that had I been more experienced in the Osprey in rapids, I have had less trouble in the rapids I did. At least part of the problem for me was the unreasonable expectation that the Osprey would respond like my playboats.
I seem to have a similar adjustment period between whitewater boats in general though my first almost was my last this time.
I would very much like to do a multi day whitewater trip in my Encore. If it were not for the long slow flat sections and lakes on the Machias The Encore would have been there and I’d have run more of the rapids and not had my one near disaster.
bentshaft vs straight differences can be
a little overblown…imho, at least at the degree of angles of the mass-produced. Using one over another heading into a stiff wind is subjective with one’s physical makeup. More strokes are often more productive, however heavy winds shift, and often minor corrections…performed more, with a straight shaft…can be easier in the long run. That’s all I was talkin’ bout’.
$.01
Different boats for different paddling
For running rapids your Guide is probably fine, but playing in rapids will be a lot more fun in a dedicated WW boat. You should try it – I think you’ll like it.
Yeah…
I’m sure I’ll come around on the ww boat issue…but you guys have seen the boat addiction problem I have. Getting a WW boat will mean I’ll have to try 10 before I settle on one!
I can play okay on rivers with the Guide. Not ideal, but I consider that part of river running I guess is to play when and where you can.
I still will keep an open mind on the WW boat. Just will have too many boats soon!
Actually I am still toying with the idea of getting another WW kayak. I stoppped WW kayaking when I got into paddlign in the surf. Picked up WW again with the canoe. Now I’m not sure whether to just stick to WW in the canoe or get another WW kayak…or WW canoe.
We’ll see…