Symposium selection

Advice
#1

What factors are most important when choosing a local (within a one-day drive) sea kayak symposium?

The instructors and their qualifications (if able to get that information prior to first registration deadline)?

Instructor-student ratio (if that’s posted)?

Variety of classes offered?

Class scheduling?

Student assessment process?

Any other things that should be considered?

Are most symposium classes structured so that the student receives feedback from the instructor throughout the class, or is that pretty much the instructor’s decision based on the number of students?

As always, I appreciate your opinions.

#2

I have no idea. Symposiums differ . Check out prior programs… Qualifications sometimes mean squat. A line of certs does not guarantee the instructor will engage you. The scheduling may be suitable to you or not. Its up to you.
Any good instructor should teach to the student and not just yak. There should be feedback…
I can’t answer the question about most symposium classes. I haven’t been to all. But I do teach at a few canoe symposia each year and the symposia are about the student. They are also about learning in a fun environment and social interaction is a feature and a plus.
I never have taught at a symposium where the student to instructor ratio was more than 5:1. ACA requires this. You might have a class of 10 where there should be an assistant instructor.
Focus on one topic or many? That is your decision what is best for you.
Some of the symposia I attend/teach are all day intensive affairs. Some are more casual in 1.5 hour classes. Both are great fun
The only way you will know what you like is to dive in. No matter what you are unlikely to feel hoodwinked. Instructors are not in this for a money grab.

#3

When I am considering symposium, I look at the classes/activities offered as the main thing. Are they doing the things I want? Scheduling is part of this, because if they offer a class that I want but can’t make, that wouldn’t help.

Some people really want to be in a class with some famous named instructor - for them this is important. I don’t think it really is that big a deal. On the whole, the quality of instructors at these events are usually quite high, whether famous name or not.

Student assessment becomes important as it is part of whether you can (or should) take part in a class. Unfortunately, most assessment systems don’t work well. Not uncommon to have a person inappropriate for a class in it (happens both ways - too high a skill level, or too low). No great solution to this, unfortunately.

Agree with kayakmedic on ratios - 1:5 is the norm. And classes being small enough, you generally receive continuous feedback as day progresses (but it is up to instructor to choose how he/she wants to do it).

#4

Having two participants who were “out of their depth” in a whitewater canoeing class I attended was a real drag. We spent at least 35% of our classwork time bailing out a mother/son combo who were out of their element in class 2; we were doing rivers that had some class 3 rapids. Self rescue, river reading skills; they didn’t have a clue. On several occasions we had to unpin canoes they had tacoed on boulders. I think the NOC instructors gave them a “hint”. They did not show up for the second day of river paddling.

The best classes I ever attended were 2 recertification classes as an Instructor in Swiftwater Rescue.
Probably some of the easiest classes the NOC Instructor/Trainers ever taught.
Participants had nearly the same (high) skill level; all were motivated to learn, and all were
cooperative. The student themselves frowned on “playing around” ; they were there to learn. Trust level was high; the students challenged themselves.

BOB

#5

I have been out of the loop, but am thinking about getting back into it this coming season if I can find the right one. However, finding that right one for me is a bit challenging because of the number I have already been to. My experience has been both good and bad, the latter has left me with several criteria for why I would not spend a dime on a particular symposium.

First, as some above, look at the classes and the variety offered. Make sure they are teaching something you want to know, not just something you “think you should know”. There is a huge diff in the pleasure of the experience between the two when you hit a day of bone chilling damp weather all day or find out halfway thru a class that the instructor seems unable to communicate anything in a way that works for you.

Ratios as above, in a true symposium you should not need to worry about those numbers.

Instructor qualification… I don’t have much use for seeing official qual’s any more. I really suggest asking around, even if it means reaching out thru pnet on email, to paddlers with a similar background to yours. A few of the instructors that I found to be bad to useless experiences are among the most highly certed coaches within their system. In most of those cases, I am not the only person who would say that. Sometimes it is an issue with coaches that are highly qualified but only work effectively with paddlers of a certain level or description, sometimes it is a coach that has had some very good days but when you get them they seem poorly focused. One coach I will not work with any more for a few reasons has this issue. This person had a flawless record for safety for example, better than most any of them. But a few years ago things got loose at their weekend coaching event and two paddlers in a weekend event were injured, one had to go to the ER.

If you were only paying a smidge to work with them, this stuff wouldn’t matter. But you are paying more than a smidge as well as committing a high amount of time and energy to the classes at many symposiums. Make sure if you are bone tired at the end of the day - you will be - it feels like it was worth it.

Class scheduling - just watch your energy. In a four or five day symposium, it is a good idea to build in a half day of relatively easy or for the hell of it work. Something that is pure fun and if you don’t do well at it, it doesn’t matter. Your head needs it as much as your body.

Any coach worth their salt should offer a solid student assessment. If they don’t, they are failing the criteria of their certifying organization. I have a couple of coaches are that are no-goes for me because of this. How that happens can vary, during the class as well as after. Either mode works if you have a good coach.

Personally, it is a loong day on the water and I have always favored spending enough money to have a warm, comfortable room to bed down. You also will have very early starts to the full day events. You will need the ability to make a hot beverage and pack a lunch and snacks in the room for the day where you are staying. And someplace to hang out the dry suit and wet gear that hopefully does not block the bathroom.

#6

Since you’re in Northern MI, do check out next July’s Great Lakes Sea Kayaking Symposium in Grand Marais, and I’ve gone 4 times over the years. Their online program description should provide you with at least some of the answers you posed.

http://downwindsports.com/glsks/

#7

All great advice. Thanks so much! There are five “local” 2017 symposiums, but none with class descriptions yet, or any other information except for dates. When I mentioned scheduling, I was thinking along the lines of class schedules. There were three classes at the symposium I attended this summer that would have helped me, but they were all on the same day and at the same time. There was another much desired class the next day, but it was canceled. I made some mistakes I don’t want to repeat.

Most of the symposiums I’m window-shopping had a self-assessment section to figure out what classes you should be in (for the 2016 sessions). That’s tough for someone who would be horrified to slow down a class in any way. I can also see how assessment is tough for an instructor with a group of paddlers he/she has never met. I don’t know the answer to the assessment aspect other than my opinion that I’m not as skilled as I’d like to be so my instinct would be to avoid classes I think would be over my head.

Celia, my experience with instructors is next to nothing, but I have learned there are some who prefer to work only with advanced paddlers and some who are genuine in their helpfulness. What camping gear is left is feeble, so definitely a room with a good bed. In a 2014 discussion here it was stated working with an instructor is like going on a blind date. Maybe like finding the right boat, you have to kiss a lot of frogs.

@Dorian Four times? GLSKS is one I’ve been looking at. Do they run the same classes each year or is there any change? I might PM you with some questions once there’s more 2017 information, if you don’t mind. You’re in Michigan - by chance did you do Paddle Antrim this year?

#8

There are many of us that have been to the Symposium in Grand Marais. If you have any questions that Dorian can’t answer, just ask. I was there for many years also. {I taught rolling} Best Wishes, Roy

#9

More on the slowing down the class concern… as above, unless you are in a tracked situation with pre-req’s, like the BCU/PNA classes, you will find more of a variety of paddling levels in a class than always makes for the most efficient teaching. It is the nature of self-assessment. But the thing that most slows down a class is not gaps in a skill, but a paddler who is unwilling or fearful about taking on a new challenge. Someone who is willing and bold will rarely slow down a class like someone who hangs back, or is so nervous that they freeze and put themselves into a rescue scenario every ten minutes. I very much doubt you lack the ability to take rational risks from how you have posted here. Irrational risks, that is another matter. I did say no immediately once to a coach’s suggestion that after lunch we should all paddle out beyond 4 to 5 ft steep breakers after lunch - the first day I was ever at a surf class. Conditions were unusually high that day due to a hurricane offshore, but you get what you get when doing surf. I was quite certain it was a baaad idea unless conditions dropped a lot, and said I would see them all on the beach. Conditions stayed up all day. Happily by midday the coaches had all realized that the class, mostly beginners, was not nearly up to getting back to the beach thru that safely and by the afternoon that concept was no longer in play.

#10

@celia. Thanks for writing about following your instincts. Maybe not always an easy thing to do, but I believe in trusting your instinctive and intuitive senses. The 2011 Lumpy Waters incident report is a good example. People had concerns but never spoke up.

I’ve often wondered about the protocol if a paddler is in a class and finds it’s way over their skill set. Would you be allowed to head back to shore on your own if within reasonable paddling distance or must you stick it out?

As a solo paddler, I’m picky about conditions and try to avoid getting into risky situations. But water and wind are never stagnant and there have been a couple of incidents on Lake Michigan this summer that scared me because I didn’t know how to handle them. One I learned from, the other - well, I’m still uncertain should the situation arise again. I need a class titled “Paddling for Dummies: What to do When Godzilla Rogue Waves Approach.”

I’m sure it’s mostly psychological, but it’s a different ball game when in class accompanied by an instructor or paddling with experienced people. I won’t throw caution to the wind but will paddle in circumstances I wouldn’t do solo. Maybe its a false sense of security?

I was thinking about your description of a person being so nervous they freeze. If conditions are that scary, wouldn’t your survival instincts take over so that you’d try to keep moving forward to get to safety? It’s not like you can pull over and park. Unless you have a sea anchor handy.

#11

The last time I was in a group that came close to being a news story, it was because myself and my husband did not speak up and say no. We would have been right. Neither of us ever made that mistake again in a group, in fact we became real party poopers in some peoples’ minds.

On paddling back by yourself, in olden times I would have said that in no properly run class would a paddler be sent back to shore alone. And that would certainly still be the case if the group was well out from shore. At the worst they would stay with the group and skip the more challenging stuff, maybe be towed with support if tiredness was a problem. Unfortunately, since I stepped out of symposiums due to a combination of annoyance and a health issue in the family, I know of a paddler in a formal class who was sent back to shore by themselves. Granted it was a short distance, but there was some minor surf in the way. Whether it was a fault in communication among the coaches or there was supposed to be more latitude I can’t say. But it occurred.

As to people freezing - I was in a 2 day class with a person who froze when feeling intimidated, which was most of the time. On day one they froze in some slop around rocks and capsized, happily they did exit. The instructor went in and towed the boat out, assuming the paddler was still holding on to the boat. Unfortunately the paddler had by then let go of their boat to retrieve the paddle they had also gotten loose from. The instructor was not hearing me over the sound of the waves nor understanding my pointing. I finally said hang it and went in to get the paddler myself - I was in my old Explorer LV which is about as bomb proof as it gets for a rescue platform - carried them out on my back deck. Paddle was retrieved by the instructor because I was darned if I was going to go in a second time since was I was a paying customer. It got worse on day two, when the same paddler had to be brought up via a hand of god rescue when the instructor suggested everyone capsize and get back up or in, as their rolling allowed , in perfectly calm conditions. I was not in that class that day due to an upper arm that had taken all it could on day 1., but my husband was. Happily one of the instructors realized that this paddler was upside down for a bit with no apparent action. Turns out they couldn’t quite manage their skirt and instead of hitting the boat panicked and froze in place. Not a useful response, but not everyone has useful responses.

BTW, the person who did the HOG was the least senior coach among the three who were managing that class. But the more senior mucky mucks had paddled away by then. Yes, without making sure that every paddler was upright. In fact one of those two coaches got their cert from that weekend. That symposium did a decent bit to advance my skepticism about the sanctity of certs, though there was more later.

#12

@Celia said:
That symposium did a decent bit to advance my skepticism about the sanctity of certs, though there was more later.

So, without knowing much about the instructors or the event, how does one avoid some of the horror stories you’re telling?

I was really considering attending the Bay of Fundy Sea Kayak Symposium in 2017 as my first introduction to the ocean in a “controlled and professional” environment. You’re making me rethink this assumption now.

#13

To Sparky - I just looked at that symposium, I would grab it in a heartbeat if I it worked in my schedule. Absolutely go for it. One reason is three of the coaches, Chris Lockyear, Gordon Brown and Andrea Knepper. I have worked with Chris and he is great, the other two I know enough about that I would say it is worthwhile to get to them. But I would be fine with any of the coaches and the biggest reason is the variety of background. What I have become most chary of is coaches and symposiums who come from only one point of view, in this I am mostly talking about people who from BCU/PNA who diss ACA and at times vice versa. I have been within hearing range of more of the first, the other may occur as well. I find that kind of attitude extraordinarily unpleasant, and have had a mixed enough experience that I don’t see either group having ground to claim perfection. This set of coaches comes from a highly varied background and I think that is healthier. I know for example that Chris started out ACA and then got certs in BCU. Gordon Brown is BCU of course, but has always had his own point of view. The first coach listed has a background including Maine Guide cert, which is less about getting wet type stuff but tends to be good on enforcing good judgement. Andrea Knepper was I believe the first woman from the US to break the glass ceiling in the BCU and get a 5 coach cert. I counted 4 women, including Barb Todd as well - I call a not-all-male set of coaches a good sign in terms of diversity and attitude. I also spotted a very serious Greenland guy.
Plus the Bay of Fundy has got to be a hoot. You do have a dry suit, yes? And a back up set of dry wear? You will need it for this event.

#14

To Sparky again - looked again and some classes are filling up. Grab a tide race session if you think it matches your level. You will likely get wet but it is a fantastically intensive learning experience.

#15

One more comment on choosing a symposium - if your goal is to gain a coaching cert, obviously you have to immerse yourself in a particular system. The depth of said immersion (and the cost) is higher in the BCU/PNA than in the ACA because of differences in how they handle the steps. You have to take a look at each program and make a decision about which one works best with your life and pocketbook. Both have value and each does some aspects of the progression in a more accessible or a more thorough fashion. Really depends on where you would go with the cert.

#16

@Celia said:
Gordon Brown is BCU of course, but has always had his own point of view.

Just a note of clarification - Along with being a BCU coach (5 star, I believe), Gordon is also ACA certified (at least level 4 open water sea kayaking, but he may actually be an Instructor Trainer in it, not just instructor)

#17

Thanks, had either not caught or forgotten that.

#18

One should also consider the Maine Mid-coast Sea Kayak Rendezvous run by Sea Cliff Kayakers (e.g. John Carmody). It is normally scheduled in October. Technically it is not a Symposium (no assessments or certifications handed out), but it is run like one. There are plenty of coaches/instructors from both the BCU and ACA. Actually Christopher Lockyer, Nigel Foster (aka “Special Guest”) and Caroline Zeiss (BCU 5*) along with a host of of others were in attendance this past October 2016.

Organizers will try to slot you in a group with like skills and abilities, however, you can request to move up/down on subsequent days if you feel things were too tame or over your head. My group end up with a new member on day 2.

As to participant versus coach/instructor ratio, it was excellent. I was in a group of six over the 3-day Rendezvous. We had three coaches for the first two days and four for the final! They also rotated in one/two new coaches each day, so you received of wealth of variety from some very capable people.

Fwiw, I believe Shawn Franklin from Boat, Body and Blade was the first woman in North American to receive her 5*.

#19

@Celia said:
To Sparky - I just looked at that symposium, I would grab it in a heartbeat if I it worked in my schedule. Absolutely go for it. One reason is three of the coaches, Chris Lockyear, Gordon Brown and Andrea Knepper. I have worked with Chris and he is great, the other two I know enough about that I would say it is worthwhile to get to them. But I would be fine with any of the coaches and the biggest reason is the variety of background. What I have become most chary of is coaches and symposiums who come from only one point of view, in this I am mostly talking about people who from BCU/PNA who diss ACA and at times vice versa. I have been within hearing range of more of the first, the other may occur as well. I find that kind of attitude extraordinarily unpleasant, and have had a mixed enough experience that I don’t see either group having ground to claim perfection. This set of coaches comes from a highly varied background and I think that is healthier. I know for example that Chris started out ACA and then got certs in BCU. Gordon Brown is BCU of course, but has always had his own point of view. The first coach listed has a background including Maine Guide cert, which is less about getting wet type stuff but tends to be good on enforcing good judgement. Andrea Knepper was I believe the first woman from the US to break the glass ceiling in the BCU and get a 5 coach cert. I counted 4 women, including Barb Todd as well - I call a not-all-male set of coaches a good sign in terms of diversity and attitude. I also spotted a very serious Greenland guy.
Plus the Bay of Fundy has got to be a hoot. You do have a dry suit, yes? And a back up set of dry wear? You will need it for this event.

Great information on the BOFSKS, and symposia in general, Celia. Thank you.

I can’t make Nova Scotia in September 2017 - although I will be renting a summer house there in July - but I think I’ll try very hard to schedule it for 2018.

#20

@Celia said:
To Sparky again - looked again and some classes are filling up. Grab a tide race session if you think it matches your level. You will likely get wet but it is a fantastically intensive learning experience.

I appreciate the advice. You have me all excited now to get signed up for it. I’ll have to see what’s left then decide for sure.

Dry suit, yes. But what do you mean by a back up set of dry wear? I only have one dry suit…