I recently got a reliable roll. The last part of the roll that I “got” was what’s called a hip snap. I think I was slow in learning that part because it isn’t a hip snap. The muscles involved in the necessary move are in the thighs. When I thought and did “knee lift” I had it! Thanks Brother Sing for sharing that information with me.
Teachers, I think you’ll get better, quicker results if you come up with a better term for that move. “knee lift”? “thigh twist” maybe?
Students, don’t think hips. Think about snapping that knee UP.
Instructors I had- used that
term & knee lift in the 2 roll classes I had taken a while ago. This weekend at the Bay area Paddlefest(California) I lucked out that Roger Schuman was giving the brace; as well as recovery (he says not “rescue”) classes, he doesn’t like the term “hip snap” - I think the term is gradually going out- I will be buying one of his books so I can build on what I learned the short time I had at the paddlefest-he gave us drills to practice-his book covers them-he also passed out flyers outlining what we learned. Had a great day!
ML
Except…
I agree that the hip image is too vague and of little use. But strictly speaking it doesn’t start as a knee lift, if you have someone who is thinking very directionally.
When someone is starting from being static upside down, a not uncommon start when someone is first learning because they tend to get stuck full roll or not, it’s not up. The first motion is actually a downward push towards the bottom of the water body, which over time you learn will cause the boat to roll up and translate that action into a lift to finish it.
I found that the image of bringing the boat up underneath you did a good job of accounting for the kind of down then up aspect of the thigh action.
My take
People learn differently. KOLB’s learning model comes to mind. Different analogies work for different people. A good instructor will have a huge bag of tricks and each student will get a slightly different approach, including the use of different analogies. The hip thing visually really works for some. Ear to shoulder for others, driving the knee for others. Good teachers watch the student and assess his/her body type, learning style, and will use whatever works for them. Within the confines of “safe” technique there are many “right” ways.
Knee Torque
That’s what I call it. I tell students to have their knees firmly planted in the thigh/knee braces and torque the boat around.
Makes sense to me anyway.
Bert
My take
People learn differently. KOLB’s learning model comes to mind. Different analogies work for different people. A good instructor will have a huge bag of tricks and each student will get a slightly different approach, including the use of different analogies. The hip thing visually really works for some. Ear to shoulder for others, driving the knee for others. Good teachers watch the student and assess his/her body type, learning style, and will use whatever works for them. Within the confines of “safe” technique there are many “right” ways.
sorry bout that
For Me
One of the things that finally got it for me was when I finally listened to many who said that the righting motion of the boat was the major force which brought you up I started making progress. From there is was easier for me to understand that the boat had to roll upright if I was going to come up. My roll needs one knee and hip thrown up and the other down. (everything else has to be working also)
Happy Paddling,
Mark
I
always liked the description “driving the knee” or “driving/activating the rolling knee.” I’ve found a good knee drive starts that hip snap as most like to call it.
Hip pivot too though
I’ve appreciated hearing the description of thigh lift or drive as another way to think of it, or another muscle motion to focus on. For me though, I feel like I get better boat righting action by focusing on the hip pivot than on the thigh lift. That’s just particular to me I’m sure. As other’s have mentioned, it’s good to present a variety of tools and ways of looking at it.
Paul S.
"rolling knee"
I never liked the term “rolling knee” because it implies that only one knee or leg is involved. Rotary motion requires the relaxing of one leg/knee and the “firing” of the other. Therefore both “knees” are involved.
For Greenland rolling, which is generally done without any high-energy movements, I prefer to refer to the “hip snap” as the gentle and gradual unfolding of your lower body. The problem is that this image makes sense once you know how to roll, but is simply confusing to the first-time roller.
I was working with one student who just couldn’t get the hipsnap – even after working on the pool ledge. I knew she hated bugs so I took a dead cricket from the pool, placed it on her kayak deck above her right thigh, and told her to flick that boat to get that bug off her boat. That bug soared into the next county. No problems after that. ;^) Different students learn in different ways.
As you advance in rolling you will learn that a hipsnap is entirely optional (a roll requires hipsnap or purchase from your hands/paddle or both). While it is good to know how to roll fast, I often practice rolling in slow-motion and with as little energy as possible – to distill the movements down to the bare minimum.
Greg Stamer
depends on the roll
Sweep rolls, especially the standard Greenland layback, have no detectable hip snap, but putting pressure on the rolling knee to from the outset is essential. On of most common reasons for a failed layback roll is “all arms” meaning that the person isn’t rolling the boat up from the start. Brace rolls, like the C to C or Greenland storm roll, require a much stronger knee to ear/nose “hip snap” in part because the righting motion starts later. Paul Dutky points out that most of us do both whether you are a sweep or c-c type, sometimes differently onside as compared to off. His book has best discussion of this question I’ve seen in print.
It’s the “snap” part I object to
With the roll taught in “The Kayak Roll”, there is no sudden, hard snap. But there is still hip twisting (for lack of a better term) from the torso sweeping and twisting. With my kayak that has great hip pads I don’t need to consciously think about the rolling knee. But on my other kayak without hip pads, my butt often shifts enough that I need to think “use that knee!” to compensate.
OTOH, I’ve watched people do pure C-to-C rolls, and then it does look like a hip “snap”–not a hip twist or roll.
Good to know
I realized there wasn’t an explicit strong hip snap when performing the eskimo roll. It’s all one fluid motion involving rotation (unwinding) of the torso as you sweep. I’ll try explicitly putting pressure on the thigh.
Paul S. (rolls sometimes)
Actually It’s Your Choice
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:05 AM EST –
As stated above you can come up snappy or you can come up smooth. I find that I need very little thigh help if I come up with my head way back. If I use a lot of thigh snap the position of the head isn't very important.
don’t burn the chicken
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 6:34 PM EST –
rotisserie roll
http://www.kayakwisconsin.net/rotisserie.html
slow control....No snap...nothing violent....like Greg Says ..... slooooow
Best Wishes
Roy
Hi Rex
If you look at the EJ video and Jay’s 1st roll, you can see that the end of the roll is the high brace position: shoulders square to and in the water looking up at the sky, paddle in position for sculling or, oh no, hip snap up as you slide on the back deck (finish position). So, with a GP, moving from sculling to upright has more of a hip snap feel to it that the slow languid Greenland layback roll. The more the boat is rolled up at the beginning, the less hipsnap is needed at the end. When I teach rolling these days, I begin with the setup/capsize sequence. I then work with the student to side scull with me in the water to support the kayak until I no longer need to touch the kayak. I then teach the finish: from high brace position to layback. I then help the student increase the angle of submersion (ending with capsized) moving to the finish position with no support. Then put it all together: capsize/setup, sweep, finish on backdeck. The key is the sculling to backdeck bit, and the key here is comfort half way in and half way out of the water. Once you get EJs high brace position or what Jay Babina calls the finish, the boat will roll itself.
Good Morning John
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:40 AM EST –
My buddy Ken really likes to lay in the water and scull for a while then come up. I've got to work on getting comfortable doing that. I'm fine with the plop-in-for-a-few-seconds-then-brace-on-up that EJ teaches. Maybe we can hit the water and practice again before it gets too cold. I understand my beautiful custom made gp is getting it's last coats of oil applied. Maybe it will inspire me to roll Greenland style.
Like I said above, I'm finding that with a strong thigh snap I can do a forward finishing roll... at least on the onside.
So much time, so little to do!
I’d love to get together, but Wednesday evening will probably be my last paddle for a couple of weeks. Am getting married on Sunday and then off to Paris for a week. And then a round of job interviews up in DC. Maybe we can get together you Bill and I toward the end of the month–you’ll have your new GP by then. Bill’s paddles are terrific–I’ve got two: storm and 86" with a 20" loom. The full size GP feels very much like my Superior carbon fiber, but with a bit more flex and a bit less flotation. Rolls beautifully.
Slow is not good for all situations
Going down a class iv river with few if any eddies and a big hole below you is no time to roll up slowly. WW paddlers who paddle difficult rivers must develop a fast and snappy roll. I also think there is a point to be made about not being upside down any longer than needed. Especially in rivers but also sea kayaking among rocks with waves, length of time in the water equals risk.