I
always liked the description “driving the knee” or “driving/activating the rolling knee.” I’ve found a good knee drive starts that hip snap as most like to call it.
Hip pivot too though
I’ve appreciated hearing the description of thigh lift or drive as another way to think of it, or another muscle motion to focus on. For me though, I feel like I get better boat righting action by focusing on the hip pivot than on the thigh lift. That’s just particular to me I’m sure. As other’s have mentioned, it’s good to present a variety of tools and ways of looking at it.
Paul S.
"rolling knee"
I never liked the term “rolling knee” because it implies that only one knee or leg is involved. Rotary motion requires the relaxing of one leg/knee and the “firing” of the other. Therefore both “knees” are involved.
For Greenland rolling, which is generally done without any high-energy movements, I prefer to refer to the “hip snap” as the gentle and gradual unfolding of your lower body. The problem is that this image makes sense once you know how to roll, but is simply confusing to the first-time roller.
I was working with one student who just couldn’t get the hipsnap – even after working on the pool ledge. I knew she hated bugs so I took a dead cricket from the pool, placed it on her kayak deck above her right thigh, and told her to flick that boat to get that bug off her boat. That bug soared into the next county. No problems after that. ;^) Different students learn in different ways.
As you advance in rolling you will learn that a hipsnap is entirely optional (a roll requires hipsnap or purchase from your hands/paddle or both). While it is good to know how to roll fast, I often practice rolling in slow-motion and with as little energy as possible – to distill the movements down to the bare minimum.
Greg Stamer
depends on the roll
Sweep rolls, especially the standard Greenland layback, have no detectable hip snap, but putting pressure on the rolling knee to from the outset is essential. On of most common reasons for a failed layback roll is “all arms” meaning that the person isn’t rolling the boat up from the start. Brace rolls, like the C to C or Greenland storm roll, require a much stronger knee to ear/nose “hip snap” in part because the righting motion starts later. Paul Dutky points out that most of us do both whether you are a sweep or c-c type, sometimes differently onside as compared to off. His book has best discussion of this question I’ve seen in print.
It’s the “snap” part I object to
With the roll taught in “The Kayak Roll”, there is no sudden, hard snap. But there is still hip twisting (for lack of a better term) from the torso sweeping and twisting. With my kayak that has great hip pads I don’t need to consciously think about the rolling knee. But on my other kayak without hip pads, my butt often shifts enough that I need to think “use that knee!” to compensate.
OTOH, I’ve watched people do pure C-to-C rolls, and then it does look like a hip “snap”–not a hip twist or roll.
Good to know
I realized there wasn’t an explicit strong hip snap when performing the eskimo roll. It’s all one fluid motion involving rotation (unwinding) of the torso as you sweep. I’ll try explicitly putting pressure on the thigh.
Paul S. (rolls sometimes)
Actually It’s Your Choice
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:05 AM EST –
As stated above you can come up snappy or you can come up smooth. I find that I need very little thigh help if I come up with my head way back. If I use a lot of thigh snap the position of the head isn't very important.
don’t burn the chicken
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 6:34 PM EST –
rotisserie roll
http://www.kayakwisconsin.net/rotisserie.html
slow control....No snap...nothing violent....like Greg Says ..... slooooow
Best Wishes
Roy
Hi Rex
If you look at the EJ video and Jay’s 1st roll, you can see that the end of the roll is the high brace position: shoulders square to and in the water looking up at the sky, paddle in position for sculling or, oh no, hip snap up as you slide on the back deck (finish position). So, with a GP, moving from sculling to upright has more of a hip snap feel to it that the slow languid Greenland layback roll. The more the boat is rolled up at the beginning, the less hipsnap is needed at the end. When I teach rolling these days, I begin with the setup/capsize sequence. I then work with the student to side scull with me in the water to support the kayak until I no longer need to touch the kayak. I then teach the finish: from high brace position to layback. I then help the student increase the angle of submersion (ending with capsized) moving to the finish position with no support. Then put it all together: capsize/setup, sweep, finish on backdeck. The key is the sculling to backdeck bit, and the key here is comfort half way in and half way out of the water. Once you get EJs high brace position or what Jay Babina calls the finish, the boat will roll itself.
Good Morning John
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:40 AM EST –
My buddy Ken really likes to lay in the water and scull for a while then come up. I've got to work on getting comfortable doing that. I'm fine with the plop-in-for-a-few-seconds-then-brace-on-up that EJ teaches. Maybe we can hit the water and practice again before it gets too cold. I understand my beautiful custom made gp is getting it's last coats of oil applied. Maybe it will inspire me to roll Greenland style.
Like I said above, I'm finding that with a strong thigh snap I can do a forward finishing roll... at least on the onside.
So much time, so little to do!
I’d love to get together, but Wednesday evening will probably be my last paddle for a couple of weeks. Am getting married on Sunday and then off to Paris for a week. And then a round of job interviews up in DC. Maybe we can get together you Bill and I toward the end of the month–you’ll have your new GP by then. Bill’s paddles are terrific–I’ve got two: storm and 86" with a 20" loom. The full size GP feels very much like my Superior carbon fiber, but with a bit more flex and a bit less flotation. Rolls beautifully.
Slow is not good for all situations
Going down a class iv river with few if any eddies and a big hole below you is no time to roll up slowly. WW paddlers who paddle difficult rivers must develop a fast and snappy roll. I also think there is a point to be made about not being upside down any longer than needed. Especially in rivers but also sea kayaking among rocks with waves, length of time in the water equals risk.
Congratulations!
Hope the wedding and the trip go smoothly.
Bill just emailed me and said the paddle is ready. Maybe I’ll get somewhat familiar with it before we paddle again. Fire me off an email when you get back.
Rex
Rolling Fast
Yes, I agree completely. Sometimes you have to roll fast. Most of the time for many sea kayaking situations you can take your time and save your energy.
FWIW, you can perform many of the Greenland rolls lightning fast – such as the forward leaning storm roll. Even the standard (layback) roll can be done quite fast.
Ironically, I can roll extremely fast, because I practice many techniques very slow and have very little wasted motion (but I also practice rolls fast as well).
The point is to keep variety in your training. Try rolling as fast as you can, and in slow-motion, and with other variables thrown in (with a friend holding on to your kayak, or capsizing in awkward positions, etc).
Greg Stamer
Faster/Slower
Less water up your nose is always nice, and with a large rock coming at me I’d not think about slowly uncurling anything. But there are times when you need to be comfortable taking more time to roll up, for example if you flip in a tidal race where it may take a moment to get to a more effective side of the boat. Or if you are bringing up a fully loaded expedition boat, or capsize in conditions where sculling up may be more reliable than going for a fast pop up - you need to be comfortable with a slower roll. Those (like me) who started out with a pretty explosive hip snap often need to learn to be comfortable taking that time.
I know
I was going to add that function of the other knee working into the equation. When I help other paddlers, I’ve always found success in showing them to relax the other leg while driving the other…slow or fast.
I’ve found that when I’ve forcefully dropped the other knee out of the brace and drove the weight of my leg down on the seat and toward the hull, it really brings the boat around quickly.
What are your thoughts on foot braces…ie telling students to take their foot off the braces. It seems new rollers tend to press too hard against the foot braces, locking their body in place and really stalling the hip/knee motion.
Celia
In a past post you mentioned swimming during surf sessions. I bet the more comfortable you get hanging out upside down the less that will happen. Surf can result in some ugly pummelings, and one must relax until they are over.
Agree
I refer to it as the “driving ass-cheek”. With one knee driving the boat up and the opposing butt cheek driving the boat down, she flips right over.
This is one instance where a big butt is advantageous.
Hip snap
I now use Hip Snap to define twisting the boat. Once I was teaching someone to roll and I told her to lift her knee and nothing happened. I said it again and nothing happened and she said “I’m lifting my knee as hard as I can”. She was right.
Sit in your boat and lift your knee as hard as you can - you can’t budge the boat - not until you lift or twist your hips upward.
Rock your boat as hard as you can from side to side. That’s the hip snap or twist. I have been using the C to C roll more and more with my non-extended GP. Body in an upright position with an arch towards the paddle allowing for a strong hip snap. I still practice other rolls but recently when capsized while surfing, that’s what I used.
Try this: rock your boat as hard as you can from side to side. Now lower yourself back and try it. Gets really tough - same with a forward lean. That’s why you don’t see abrupt hip snaps with lay-back and forward leaning rolls. But an upright position allows you to hip-snap or twist up the boat with a lot of power (if you want).