Good to know
I realized there wasn’t an explicit strong hip snap when performing the eskimo roll. It’s all one fluid motion involving rotation (unwinding) of the torso as you sweep. I’ll try explicitly putting pressure on the thigh.
Paul S. (rolls sometimes)
Actually It’s Your Choice
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:05 AM EST –
As stated above you can come up snappy or you can come up smooth. I find that I need very little thigh help if I come up with my head way back. If I use a lot of thigh snap the position of the head isn't very important.
don’t burn the chicken
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 6:34 PM EST –
rotisserie roll
http://www.kayakwisconsin.net/rotisserie.html
slow control....No snap...nothing violent....like Greg Says ..... slooooow
Best Wishes
Roy
Hi Rex
If you look at the EJ video and Jay’s 1st roll, you can see that the end of the roll is the high brace position: shoulders square to and in the water looking up at the sky, paddle in position for sculling or, oh no, hip snap up as you slide on the back deck (finish position). So, with a GP, moving from sculling to upright has more of a hip snap feel to it that the slow languid Greenland layback roll. The more the boat is rolled up at the beginning, the less hipsnap is needed at the end. When I teach rolling these days, I begin with the setup/capsize sequence. I then work with the student to side scull with me in the water to support the kayak until I no longer need to touch the kayak. I then teach the finish: from high brace position to layback. I then help the student increase the angle of submersion (ending with capsized) moving to the finish position with no support. Then put it all together: capsize/setup, sweep, finish on backdeck. The key is the sculling to backdeck bit, and the key here is comfort half way in and half way out of the water. Once you get EJs high brace position or what Jay Babina calls the finish, the boat will roll itself.
Good Morning John
– Last Updated: Oct-03-06 8:40 AM EST –
My buddy Ken really likes to lay in the water and scull for a while then come up. I've got to work on getting comfortable doing that. I'm fine with the plop-in-for-a-few-seconds-then-brace-on-up that EJ teaches. Maybe we can hit the water and practice again before it gets too cold. I understand my beautiful custom made gp is getting it's last coats of oil applied. Maybe it will inspire me to roll Greenland style.
Like I said above, I'm finding that with a strong thigh snap I can do a forward finishing roll... at least on the onside.
So much time, so little to do!
I’d love to get together, but Wednesday evening will probably be my last paddle for a couple of weeks. Am getting married on Sunday and then off to Paris for a week. And then a round of job interviews up in DC. Maybe we can get together you Bill and I toward the end of the month–you’ll have your new GP by then. Bill’s paddles are terrific–I’ve got two: storm and 86" with a 20" loom. The full size GP feels very much like my Superior carbon fiber, but with a bit more flex and a bit less flotation. Rolls beautifully.
Slow is not good for all situations
Going down a class iv river with few if any eddies and a big hole below you is no time to roll up slowly. WW paddlers who paddle difficult rivers must develop a fast and snappy roll. I also think there is a point to be made about not being upside down any longer than needed. Especially in rivers but also sea kayaking among rocks with waves, length of time in the water equals risk.
Congratulations!
Hope the wedding and the trip go smoothly.
Bill just emailed me and said the paddle is ready. Maybe I’ll get somewhat familiar with it before we paddle again. Fire me off an email when you get back.
Rex
Rolling Fast
Yes, I agree completely. Sometimes you have to roll fast. Most of the time for many sea kayaking situations you can take your time and save your energy.
FWIW, you can perform many of the Greenland rolls lightning fast – such as the forward leaning storm roll. Even the standard (layback) roll can be done quite fast.
Ironically, I can roll extremely fast, because I practice many techniques very slow and have very little wasted motion (but I also practice rolls fast as well).
The point is to keep variety in your training. Try rolling as fast as you can, and in slow-motion, and with other variables thrown in (with a friend holding on to your kayak, or capsizing in awkward positions, etc).
Greg Stamer
Faster/Slower
Less water up your nose is always nice, and with a large rock coming at me I’d not think about slowly uncurling anything. But there are times when you need to be comfortable taking more time to roll up, for example if you flip in a tidal race where it may take a moment to get to a more effective side of the boat. Or if you are bringing up a fully loaded expedition boat, or capsize in conditions where sculling up may be more reliable than going for a fast pop up - you need to be comfortable with a slower roll. Those (like me) who started out with a pretty explosive hip snap often need to learn to be comfortable taking that time.
I know
I was going to add that function of the other knee working into the equation. When I help other paddlers, I’ve always found success in showing them to relax the other leg while driving the other…slow or fast.
I’ve found that when I’ve forcefully dropped the other knee out of the brace and drove the weight of my leg down on the seat and toward the hull, it really brings the boat around quickly.
What are your thoughts on foot braces…ie telling students to take their foot off the braces. It seems new rollers tend to press too hard against the foot braces, locking their body in place and really stalling the hip/knee motion.
Celia
In a past post you mentioned swimming during surf sessions. I bet the more comfortable you get hanging out upside down the less that will happen. Surf can result in some ugly pummelings, and one must relax until they are over.
Agree
I refer to it as the “driving ass-cheek”. With one knee driving the boat up and the opposing butt cheek driving the boat down, she flips right over.
This is one instance where a big butt is advantageous.
Hip snap
I now use Hip Snap to define twisting the boat. Once I was teaching someone to roll and I told her to lift her knee and nothing happened. I said it again and nothing happened and she said “I’m lifting my knee as hard as I can”. She was right.
Sit in your boat and lift your knee as hard as you can - you can’t budge the boat - not until you lift or twist your hips upward.
Rock your boat as hard as you can from side to side. That’s the hip snap or twist. I have been using the C to C roll more and more with my non-extended GP. Body in an upright position with an arch towards the paddle allowing for a strong hip snap. I still practice other rolls but recently when capsized while surfing, that’s what I used.
Try this: rock your boat as hard as you can from side to side. Now lower yourself back and try it. Gets really tough - same with a forward lean. That’s why you don’t see abrupt hip snaps with lay-back and forward leaning rolls. But an upright position allows you to hip-snap or twist up the boat with a lot of power (if you want).
That’s interesting
However, the roll Eric Jackson teaches has a sharp hip snap with a lay back. My personal experience is that I can roll boats with an EJ roll that I could not with a CtoC. I have several friends who have switched from a CtoC to either a sweep or an EJ and they all roll more reliably now. The obvious trade off is a reduction of power in the hip snap in order to get the lowered center of gravity. I think you gain more than you lose with an EJ roll. This is especially true if you start out the roll as a kind of CtoC and then roll and swing your body down and back and then over the stern.
Context
There are other things that play into “what works”, too.
I like the roll taught in The Kayak Roll, and have gotten it to be reliable in calm water and small wind waves.
After reading so much about the EJ rolling and bracing DVD, I bought that to see what I could glean from it. A friend encouraged me to try sculling with my head in the water, something I had not tried before. I had always done it with a J-lean and head up, weight pretty much centered over the kayak and body/blade perpendicular to the long axis. By gradually arching my upper back and letting the head slowly lower backwards while bringing it closer to the rear of the kayak, I was able to scull with head in water on the right side. OK, one happy paddler here. (Though I’m not sure what use this little accomplishment really is??? other than it looks kinda cool.)
Then I tried it on the left side. My head and upper torso must have been a little too stiff (not arched back), probably a little too far away from the stern too. At any rate, the paddle began sinking and I knew I was about to flip the boat. Having practiced another EJ exercise, I instinctly swung my head onto the rear deck and LO, my kayak jerked back to its upright position. I was so sure that I was gonna end up underneath the boat that I exclaimed, “Wow, that trick really works!”
I thought that was the coolest thing of all…no need to set up for a roll…just go from the “imminent OOPS” position to looking at the sky from the back deck, nice and dry.
So while I will continue to practice the “modified sweep roll” because I like the way it feels I will also keep practicing some of the techniques leading up to the EJ roll, because in some cases it’s faster to avoid going to the setup position in the first place.
Another thing:
I can do the roll both slow and fast in my T165 (the boat with the good hip braces). I can only do it quickly in my Merganser, because when I try to slow it down, my butt shifts sideways. I need to improve the outfitting in that boat.
People scull with head out? L
Always good to be reminded we may not be using the same terms for the same things.
For me, sculling usually means side scull = head wet. It’s just easier to let the water do most of the work.
Done upright/dry I’d call it either a low brace, a sweep stroke, a sculling draw, or some mix. I suppose I could face out toward the paddle and do a partial chest scull - but being top heavy it would be a lot more energy efficient if I just went all the way over and again, let the water do most of the work.
Not a sculling draw
Kayak is edged way over (can be almost on its side), and the paddle is held almost parallel instead of almost vertical. And the kayak isn’t being pulled sideways. Plus that way is far easier for me to do for long periods than “head back in water” sculling, despite the lack of water support. My torso is probably much shorter than yours, AND the back of coaming and rear deck much higher in relation to body size. I have to stretch and arch my spine so much I feel it is a very vulnerable position–unlike the J-leaned sculling.
Might be a different situation with more practice (head in water). Guess I’ll have to see! I’m not about to buy another kayak any time soon so it’s up to me.
I get what you’re doing…
– Last Updated: Oct-05-06 12:08 PM EST –
... I just don't get why exactly?
What can you do from that dry position? Why scull there at all? Why not just sit up and paddle? ;)
I can see the benefits/need of staying dry for a quick sculling brace, or a low brace turn, but to just hang out and scull suspended like that? For more than a few seconds as down and up control practice? Everything's good to practice, with all manner of variation, I just don't see the utility of sitting in one place actively hovering with body balanced between boat and paddle? (OK - Maybe to keep you out of cold water? - but if that's an issue then this is an even more questionable skill).
With body immersed while you can stay there using very little energy and stabilize/rest/regroup.
I do get what you're saying about coaming height - I paddle a QCC with 10" high rear coaming - but that only matters if I am trying to torque to kayak over enough to balance brace (note I said "trying"). For side sculling in that boat I keep it closer to 90 degrees where I have no coaming/freeboard issues. As long as the kayak is past vertical and not falling back over on me it takes very little effort to hang out like that. If I arch and twist it over more it actually becomes counter productive as the inboard gunwale/coaming begins to ride above the water - with the increasing freeboard lifting more of me out of the water and requiring more and more force to counter the added sinking action.
This is why LOW rear deck kayaks are easier to do these moves in. You can get them over/flatter and still have the inboard side of the coaming sunk (if not much of the rear deck). I can't do that in the QCC. The more of me that's in the water - the more my own buoyancy helps - and the less my weight can work against me. To get that working in a deeper cockpit kayak it needs to be more on it's side so the coaming is submerged (and more of you with it).
Every kayak/kayaker combination is different. It's not realistic to use the same body position in a kayak that's 8" deep at the rear of the cockpit as in one that's 5". If it's not a comfortable position - find one that is for you, in your kayak - not some idealized version that's meant for a super LV qajaq.
While the body and boat position for side sculling and balance brace are intimately related - they need not be 100% the same. If you can balance brace your boat - then the low effort side scull is a no-brainer. If you can't - or have a kayak that's just not got the right geometry - you need to adapt the techniques to your own needs. None of this should be a struggle.