I agree that EJ’s brace-is-a-roll / head-back method is good. Helped me lots.
I wish EJ and the whole world would quit saying ‘hip snap’. When I started righting my boat with my knee my roll took off. ‘Knee snap’ or ‘Thigh snap’ or ‘Lap inversion’ is much better IMHO.
I wish someone had taught me to roll with a GP. It can’t dive because I can always feel the angle. An extended GP provides so much leverage it’s almost like cheating. I think it’s ideal for a beginner to gain confidence.
Don’t let a beginner use goggles more than a few times. A buddy of mine has become goggle-dependent.
Lay back style roll More and more white water paddlers are using the lay back style of roll rather than the old standard C 2 C style. It seems to work much easier especially with the newer style of flat bottom WW boats. You don’t need a hip snap to do a lay back style roll. It may help a bit but it’s not necessary. Most people find the lay back the best 1st roll to learn because of that. It takes quite a while to get a good hip snap type of roll and some people never get it - which is fine. Women usually have good spinal flexibility and often knock off the lay back style of roll easily. I always start by easing them over on the recovery side and have them lay back and leverage up. I tell them to roll their body a bit towards the finish side which is a bit of a hip twist while keeping their head back. Then I lower them a few feet underwater and they do the same thing. Finally they are fully upside down - and you’re always there to get them up if needed. That’s the general progression.
Tools While I’ve taught Greenland technique and Euro paddle technique I would say that teach your student using the tools they intend to use on the water. If they intend to use a euro blade use that, which is probably the case since you mention river.
Lots of good advice here, although i’ll second “The Kayak Roll”. The troubleshooting section is great for instructors and I review it periodically to keep my eyes sharp.
" lay back style of roll " I haven’t always keep track of the rolling techniques. So this is a new terminology for me.
I only know of one roll with a layback finish. Are there more, or a whole group of them? Or is that an entirely different kind of roll beyond just the finish?
Euro it will be It’s what they have, and besides that, it’s fine for sculling etc. I do all my rolling, including butterfly rolls, using Euro blades. Don’t want to get hung up on equipment details if it works well.
Though it is important that they learn to roll the boat they will most likely be in when the need arises and that they have access to for practice.
In our fleet, the boats best used for teaching someone to roll are the Piedra, Elaho DS, and Romany. There are many other roll friendly boats exemplified by the Outer Island.
I've found that old school ww boats roll easily - much more so than new school ww boxes. If I were regularly teaching rolling, I would have a few old school boats such as Pirouette, Piedra, Animas.
I've often put novices having difficulty with skills in my Romany and watched them beam with pleasure and success. When my own roll has gotten sketchy I go back to my Romany to work. Positive reinforcement is a wonderful thing ;-)
lay back rolls Apart from traditional Greenland style rolls, a good number of people complete a C-to-C roll or sweep roll with a fairly pronounced backwards lean.
This does, of course, get the body weight closer to the axis of rotation at the cost of finishing the roll in a somewhat less strong position to continue paddling.
If this is what makes someone’s roll consistently successful I am all for it, but I don’t personally encourage it for whitewater paddlers. It does increase somewhat the risk of getting jammed on the back deck if the roll fails in a shallow rapid and places the face and throat in a more vulnerable position.
A controversial opinion My position is that you are just at much as risk missing a C-to-C or sweep roll as you are a lay back roll. Your face is just as exposed and I have never heard of anyone getting jammed on to the back deck in shallow water after missing a lay back roll. Beyond that lay back rolls are generally more reliable for most people, which reduces the overall risk.
I have been jammed on the back deck It did not occur after missing a roll but running a shallow rapid with a long rocky slide. I was leaning back somewhat to keep the bow free but not as much as many people do when rolling. I caught the bow and was unable to tuck quickly enough going over and ran the rest of the rapid face down on the back deck which was not pleasant. It becomes very difficult to even reach the grab loop of the skirt in that position.
If you have not experienced this, you can take my word for it that it is to be avoided.
1st roll vs. river roll WW rolling used to be very dogmatic. And the view was, C2C ONLY.
That definitely changed. I notice a lot of paddlers using sweep roll, or at least a modified C2C (blended with sweep).
With so many WW paddlers dabbling in freestyle, which has many way of fliping over, it’s only natural there’re equally many way to get back up. So if you capsized while on the back deck, you can roll back up without leaving the back deck!
I definitely see using lay back finnish to easy the learning curve of attaining one’s 1st roll too. But if the WW paddler is to continue paddling white water, he/she better learn to roll in more ways than one!
Reality is, most do. Since most WW capsize happen in rapids, unless you have the luck of drifting into a pool, you’re still in the rapid after righting your boat. So a layback finish really isn’t the most desireable. (still better than not making the roll, of course) A neutral (upright) finish puts one on the position to immediately brace & paddle. So those who got their 1st roll with layback finish, most will continue working on it till they can have a neutral finish.
On the river, I don’t see a lot of lay back finish. Majority of compat rolls I’ve seen are with a upright finish.
Personally, I felt C2C is actually the easiest to learn, because you don’t have to do multiple things at the right time. Just one strong hip snap is all it’s needed. Naturally, that favores younger, stronger and more flexible body, which WW does attract the most. Hence the popularity of C2C on the WW scence.
But I don’t do C2C on the river either. It takes more energy. If I play a lot, I can expect up to 5-10 capsizes! I ended up gravitated to a sweep (or screw?) roll which takes less effort. I’d rather save my energy to play more! :o)
I agree with that I do think that the C-to-C roll is the easiest to teach and for students to learn conceptually but isn’t necessarily the best to use, especially with modern K-1 play boats. The newer play boats have one’s hips pretty markedly externally rotated and abducted with the thighs splayed out and the knees relatively high. This makes the boat quite thick (deep) right in front of the cockpit area.
The planing hulls also result in a pretty sharp chine which often also has a ridge molded into the polyethylene at the chine. The result of this thick, slab-sided shape is to make it more difficult for the paddler to wrap around the hull during the C-to-C roll, and during the hip snap it is quite common for the thumb of the non-sweeping hand to get beat up dragging over the sharp ridge on the chine.
The sweep roll gets around this because the boat is already partially rolled up before the paddle is swept out to 90 degrees. This gets the sharp edge of the hull out of the paddler’s arm pit before the hip snap. The hip snap is also less explosive and more fluid and is ultimately more relaxed.
And those who paddle steep creeks with low flow and high gradients are probably wise to learn the so-called “rodeo roll” in which one sets up and rolls off the back deck (although in really shallow rapids it can be difficult or impossible to roll even using the rodeo roll).
why learning to roll is soooo hard for many......
..
"I" believe it is FAR more effective to step away from the jargon and set model's and focus on the simple physics and body dynamics. Less said by instructor = more powerful learning.
My big issue with roll instruction is 'hip snap'. For ME it was a big block in my progress. I think if it hindered my roll it's probably causing lots of people problems.
If I try to 'hip' my boat up I fail (or my paddle does all the work). If I 'knee' the boat up it works.
Think about it... if someone threatens to hip you in the groin how concerned are you? Okay, maybe Charo would cause some concern (cuchi cuchi).
depends on the student Some people are kinesthetic learners and need to execute and feel the body mechanics to learn. Others seem to be analytical learners and benefit from a more detailed description of the body mechanics.
I agree that at some point, discussion becomes more confusing than beneficial. But I have found that many people can not learn a kayak roll only from watching a video or seeing someone else demonstrate it. For these people you have to use some verbal descriptors to focus on the body mechanics, and you have to have some logical strategy of presenting the information.
It’s BOTH! “If I try to ‘hip’ my boat up I fail (or my paddle does all the work). If I ‘knee’ the boat up it works.”
But for many others, hip is what works!
“Think about it… if someone threatens to hip you in the groin how concerned are you? Okay, maybe Charo would cause some concern (cuchi cuchi).”
Only if you’re a man!
Think about it, “hip” is what seperates upper and lower body. By moving your upper body from side to side (a clearly “hip” action), the boat literally rights itself.
If you’re a dancer, the hip snap makes perfect sense. But if you’re more of a soccer player, yes, knee action is easier to understand.
So, it’s not wrong or “inaccurate” to say hip snap. It’s just not the ONLY way to teach. If the student is not getting it, time to try something else. For example, “knee flick”.
that I've encountered never say both. They always say 'hip snap'. I think it was Sing who clued me in. Thanks Sing! That's the value of PNet. Thanks Brent!
Maybe we should take turns... start using the term 'knee flick' and let the loser 'hip people' figure it out by word of mouth.
I swear ta God this really happened: Some years back I was at the pool for roll practice. There was no instruction but the pool was open for kayakers to practice. A young guy was trying unsuccessfully to teach himself to roll his ww boat. He asked if we had any pointers. I said "Right the boat with your knee." He rolled.... on his very next attempt.
Agree Been teaching folk for years and never failed to get people rolling in one session. Two things I’ve noticed with my approach.
I talk less 2. They learn faster with less talking
The toughest folk to teach are the one’s who’ve had their heads filled with absolutist notions from previous instruction. You have to get them to erase all of that and just listen and focus on a few very simple fundamentals. They are rolling in minutes and cannot believe you aren’t helping them!
As others have said, once they are rolling it’s easy to refine, tweak, and learn other styles.
Knee, hip, both…whatever. Sure, different brains receive information differently so just use simple words that work for them, rather than conforming to some roll instructional flow chart. I think EJ’s stuff is excellent from what I’ve seen.
