C2C vs sweep
If you learn C2C as a first, it’s likely pretty “hip”-centric. But if you learn by sweep roll first (or later), “knee” is actually mentioned a lot.
It makes more sense to use hip more in C2C. Because the roll is pretty explosive. “Hip” motion involves a lot of core muscle and works better.
With sweep roll, the pressure on the boat is more continues. So it makes sense to envision a constant knee pressure rather than an explosive hipsnap.
Frankly, had I not already had a roll before starting on a sweep roll, I might had quite a bit of difficulty to envision trying to “knee someone” while in a sitting position…
"C-to-C roll is the easiest to teach"
Probably not. The lay back roll that EJ teaches has the advantage, like the C-to-C, of having separable steps, but the additional advantage of not requiring as much flexibility and not as strong a hip snap. I have taught students the EJ roll when they could not learn the C-to-C.
Agree
As a student I did much better when I focused on keeping my head BACK rather than down.
Now abc
We knee people explode just fine with our knees.
one tip
– Last Updated: Sep-13-11 2:07 PM EST –
First try to do as much as you can on land, on a sandy or grassy spot. Starting with an exit.
I know - it sounds silly. But you can approximate many of the same critical positions and motions and allow the new paddler to get a feel for the boat without any risk.
Keep it simple and talk less
– Last Updated: Sep-14-11 8:21 AM EST –
As someone who took longer to have a reliable roll than many think usual, I want to reinforce the repeated suggestion to talk less and keep it simple.
Ben Lawry's approach of starting on land can be very useful. Once someone has the experience of righting the boat on land, it can be easier for them to right it in water.
It strikes me as important to say/reinforce that it is the lower body that is righting the boat.
EDIT: "It strikes me" = IMHO
It seems that some do not think the lower body is decisive in righting the boat.
I Dunno…
If you say ‘it’s all lower body’ then you are implying that everyone should be able to do hand rolls from day one. I would take a different approach. To build a beginners confidence I’d hand them a GP and have them use it extended. As they go from extended to non, they’ll be forced to use less paddle and more thigh.
shoulda stopped at
"keep it simple and talk less".
okay…
– Last Updated: Sep-14-11 8:18 AM EST –
I didn't write nor did I intend to say that people should hand roll immediately.
Often people learning to roll think it is the paddle that rights the boat.
IMHO the lower body is what rights the boat. Even in an extended gp roll, while the paddle provides flotation, the lower body is decisive.
I’m just learning
to get my roll down. Me and my fiance took a one day course at Endless River Adventures near Bryson City, NC. They teach newbies the C-to-C roll, they have a lot of confidence in this roll and one of the owners (Ken) is credited with coming up with this particular roll (if I understood correctly).
During class I was able to finally get one roll on my own, not pretty and definitely muscled it up, but I was breathing air in the end so I was happy. My fiance got really close to rolling during class.
Our first time in WW boats and first class was about a month ago. When we got home we started going to the lake after work every night we could. I finally started figuring it out and getting more consistant. I decided to pick up some swimmers goggles so I could watch as I swept my paddle out during set up. I used them one night and started hitting my roll fairly consistant. But the next day I decided I was better off ditching the goggles and going by feel again.
One thing that really helped me was nose plugs. I was totally against using them, but after a few nights of sinus problems I gave in and it made a big difference. The nose plugs gave me some sort of false sense of security and allowed me to calm down and take a little more time while under the boat.
When my fiance pratices rolling at the lake, I stand on the concrete launching ramp in front of her to assist if needed. While doing that a few weeks ago I noticed that when she swept her paddle out for set up, she was letting it dive at times, and those were the times I really had to put a lot of muscle into assisting her up. The times she would take her time and make sure her paddle was on the surface, she was basically righting to boat on her own. That was kind of the moment I figured out what we were both doing wrong.
I was originally trying to use the momentum of the roll to come back up on the other side in one fast motion, which was causing me to also try to lift my head and use my upper body to roll up…bad, bad, bad.
The next night I would roll and make sure I stayed upside down for a few seconds, set up properly, hip snap/knee flick, and come right up.
When you use the correct form, it happens so fast and effortlessly. Another thing that I learned last weekend was to STRETCH! I wasn’t stretching out my back and hips before, but I did last weekend before we hit the river and it made a world of difference.
I’m now about 15 for 15 in slow moving river water, but still too chicken to try it in the fast water…
you made a lot of good points
– Last Updated: Sep-14-11 1:49 PM EST –
Yes, Ken Kastorff claims to have invented the C-to-C roll, although I have heard others dispute this. He certainly has been a long time proponent of it and a master at its execution.
I would like to reinforce a number of points you made.
First, stretch before you practice your roll focusing especially on lateral torso flexion to both sides and lateral neck flexion.
Second, definitely use nose plugs if it increases your comfort level under water. I think using a mask or goggles initially so that you can visualize your paddle sweep is helpful for many.
Third, have an observer. A buddy can assist you with a bow rescue or assist a failing roll as needed and this avoids having to repeatedly empty the boat which gets tiring. An observer can also check your paddle blade orientation during the set up and sweep, and make sure your paddle remains at or near the surface during the sweep. A lot of rolls fail because the paddler fails to get the paddle and upper body up close to the surface, or has the blade set to a diving angle during the sweep and snap, and this can be hard for a paddler to appreciate when under water.
Lastly, it is pretty common to see someone trying to finish the roll by attempting to "fling" their head and trunk up out of the water and over the hull. Of course the effect of this is to flex the trunk in exactly the wrong direction from what is required to engage the lower body in the roll. A couple of things I found useful when learning the C-to-C roll was the thought of trying to bring the rolling knee and hip to the ear on the same side. This helps keep the head down as well as engage the lower body in the snap.
I remember a day on the Ocoee years ago when Ken Kastorff watched me make a somewhat weak roll at Broken Nose rapid. He paddled over to the eddy I was in and asked me to put a hand on his shoulder. I did so and he dropped his head onto my hand and pinched it very forcefully and uncomfortably between his Ace helmet and his shoulder. He said "as I roll up I try to keep my head pressed against my shoulder that hard".
Oh, and when you start practicing the roll in current make sure that you capsize to your upstream side initially. That way once the boat is inverted you will be setting up and sweeping with the paddle on the downstream side of the boat. By doing so, the current will be helping to support your paddle blade during the roll rather than working to submerge it.
Yep
We took class from Ken’s wife (Juliet), who is an awesome teacher by the way :)!
She stood next to me when I first start trying to roll and would hold her hands at water level for me to rest mine on and then roll up without pushing down hard on her hands. Once I started getting the hang of that, she then would have me roll upside down with my paddle and she would grab my hands and take me through the set up/sweep motion and also bring my hands to the surface when I would try to dive the paddle.
After that she would put her fingers on my shoulder and have me try to squeeze her fingers by tilting my head to my shoulder.
The final step was to have me tilt my head back to my shoulder and arch my back as I began to roll up.
Even last weekend in the river, a couple times I tried to muscle my way up and it would slam me right back under, then I would take my time, set up, arch my back, and come right up with almost no effort at all.
The first few pratice session we had at the lake, if I didn’t roll up on my initial attempt, I would panic and pull the skirt and wet exit. It doesn’t take very long with an 80 gallon boat for that to start getting old!
Now even if I miss my second attempt, I will hit it on my third.
Last weekend we practically had the Hiawassee to our selves on a beautiful day. My friend that was with us (class IV/V seasoned paddler) finally talked me into attempting rolls in the river. We were in slower parts of the river and he offered to give me a bow rescue if I didn’t make it up. So I started my attempts and was hitting every one I tried, talk about a confidence builder (I think it was mostly just out of fear of having to swim again in that river!).
So toward the end of our trip there was a perfect place to practice true combat rolls. He would paddle up and flip upstream in this crazy fast white water, hang out for a few seconds and then come right up. He tried to get me to attempt it several times and I chickened out…now I’m kicking myself for missing a perfect opportunity for some real life practice…
He did get me to paddle as fast as possible in the slower water before flipping, and I was able to do that. So for now, that’s going to be my next step in this learning curve, that and getting to the point where I don’t set up prior to flipping.
He was trying to get me to lean back until my body and head were in the water on each side and try brace back up, but I wasn’t feeling like attempting that either. I need to start learing that for sure.
Juliet is awesome
And did she happen to tell you where to stick the thumb of your non-sweeping hand, by chance?
Hmmm
If she did I may have forgot, but I remember her telling me to keep my non-sweep hand on the boat.
another arrow in the quiver
…that’s how I felt after getting that high brace down (we were calling it a “layback high brace”…). The practicality is also nice to have when you need it.
What EJ is All About
The Eric Jackson bracing and rolling video starts his student off with a leaned back brace then a leaned back roll. Little or no lower body righting the boat. Later in the video he introduces ‘snappy’ rolls.
It’s been my experience that I can roll up ‘mostly paddle’ or ‘mostly thigh snap’ and they are equally reliable… not equally fast… but equally reliable. I’ve seen posts here that imply that if you didn’t ‘snap’ up you didn’t do it right. I don’t agree with that.
same experience here
I found the layback and sweep rolls much easier to master than the C to C when I was beginning.
I can see one disadvantage in the layback in whitewater when using a playboat with no stern volume. But otherwise I think if someone is prone to the deck face-up or face-down, there could be consequences. I don’t think I’d rule out either because of that.
I’m just picking nits
– Last Updated: Sep-14-11 4:59 PM EST –
I think the greatest teacher is the combination of boat dynamics and gravity. How your input gets you a certain response. You can definitely get the "lower body" point across by working on land first.
Personally I can understand how the roll evolved from an reflexive response to a capsize. I just wish someone had demystified it to me by telling me that.
Follow-up
Thanks for all the comments. I thought some of you might be interested to know how things went.
The woman, whom I will call “Jan”, and I did our first session a few days ago. I asked some background questions and found out she already had had pool roll instruction, along with a “lake kayak” class. Right after that, the instructors had them “run a river.” Then a bunch of them got together without the instructor and hit some other “easy” rivers.
From what I was hearing, Jan felt like she/they did not have adequate training to do these runs. One guy’s face smacked a rock while he was upside-down, and he had to get stitches (yes, this could happen to experienced paddlers also).
Pushing the limits early on seems to be sort of a common thing around here, maybe because so many students want to get the “boring part” over with and go run rapids ASAP.
Anyway, that style is not my cup of tea at all, so I thought that was a good sign her desires might be compatible with my approach. Slow and methodical (I hope). At least I won’t scare the bejeesus out of her, and she will learn some useful stuff.
We did edging exercises first, including the so-called hip snap. It went as I expected: there is a slight hiccup-like hesitation before the body moves correctly. Just as there was for me at first. No big deal…this is something that’s safe to practice in any dinky bit of pond water, alone, and it will improve quickly. Paddling with boat on edge while going straight also went as expected (too much turning one way and the other). So edging control has to be improved, not only for rolling but for so many other applications in kayaking. But she could control it well enough not to capsize while doing these.
I had her doing everything on both sides right from the gitgo, to prevent what I call lopsided brain freeze. Doing things on both sides is a habit unto itself.
Of course, I demo’d pure C-to-C, the “Kent Ford” modified sweep roll, and the full layback roll, gave her names of DVDs instructing each of these, and said once she learned one the other two would be easy to learn after that. We also did a few false sweeps wih me holding the boat. This is where I need more practice: being the support person while trying to give her the feel of the motions. This is completely new to me and feels a bit awkward to coordinate.
Two wonderful things:
(1) She learned the static brace very quickly–seemed surprised that the boat did not instantly flip over when she lay in the water! And I think my demo wherein I went into static brace, paused, deliberately capsized the boat, and then brought it upright again while my paddle-holding arm remained still on the water, showed better in a few moments than a thousand words could, to demonstrate how the boat can come upright by using almost exclusively “the rolling knee/leg” instead of paddle/arm motion.
Next time we’ll go over the same things but move more quickly on to sculling, which I only intro’d last time. We’ll work more on blade-awareness, in addition to the lower-body exercises. She was getting cold; needs warmer clothing. I know this because I deliberately wore the exact same brand/model of shirt (1mm neoprene) as she did, and I had a Farmer Jane 1.5mm neoprene over that and still felt slightly chilly at the end.
(2) At the end I asked her if she had learned anything new or useful. Afraid the answer would be “sort of” or another noncommittal response, I was elated when she said she had learned more in our session than what she’d come away with in all her previous (commercial) lessons. She also clearly wanted to get together again for more.
I just hope we have a long Indian Summer! Pool sessions generally run in late winter and early spring around here.
Congratulations!
It reads as if you and she clicked. Best wishes for continued success working with ‘Jan’ and others…