Cool!
I have found that one of the most valuable things one can do for a new student is to guide the paddle during the sweep. Congratulations on your success.
Rolling knee
I differentiate the knees with by referring to them as the rolling knee and the set up knee - you figure out which is which. I find that this help the student orient themselves better and ensures they don’t fall out of the set up position. i’ve noticed this is the biggest reason new rollers miss their rolls; they relax under water and don’t hold themselves in the setup position.
I agree
I do the same and emphasize that engaging one knee is critical in order to get the body and paddle up to the surface during the set up, then using the other knee during the so-called snap.
In the C-to-C roll this transition is very abrupt and I think some people forget to fully relax the set up knee when they execute the snap.
For white water
– Last Updated: Sep-17-11 8:30 PM EST –
In WW, one of the concern is agitated water that doesn't provide much resistance. Hence the insistance to have a strong hip snap.
You don't have to use just hip every time you roll. But if you got caught in the foamy water and your sweep roll is failing due to the lack of paddle support, you can always get back up with a C2C as a "fail safe" option.
This really bring us back to the need of having more than one roll in WW. And most WW paddlers DO.
Yes
I think a quick, very reliable roll is most important in white water. More risk. My neighbor witnessed a tragedy on ww a few years back. A fellow paddler was in a ‘roll or drown’ situation and the guy drowned.
well…
– Last Updated: Sep-18-11 4:44 PM EST –
...if someone choose to paddle in "roll or die" rivers, they'd better have a strong and reliable roll evne in the whirlpool. A "one trick pony" doesn't belong in such river.
Even expert WW paddlers die on the river. It happened before and will continue to happen. Sometimes, the current is simply too strong to counter and even the strongest roller won't be able to come up. On the other hand, those guys push the definition of "runnable" river way beyond the average WW paddlers. They wouldn't have needed their roll paddling the kind of garden variety rivers. They would have gone down it right side up the whole way!
If someone goes into river over their head, a failed roll is just the failed second (and last) chance to save themselves. Remember, you only need your roll AFTER YOU CAPSIZED.
That's where the saying comes in, a roll becomes useful when you can roll in the same condition that capsize you in the first place.
but we're getting quite far away from the thread of teaching someone to acquire their first roll...
Agree
– Last Updated: Sep-19-11 8:45 PM EST –
I've used C-to-C when sweeping was ineffective at starting the boat to re-right itself. That's why I still do hip snap exercises. I can feel when the initial sweep doesn't do what it should and then go to Plan B. Even if the paddle is well below the surface, the hip snap/deep high brace combo will roll me up. And well below the surface, the water is not foamy.
The real question is why the sweep doesn't always get the boat starting to roll back up in white water; it works reliably in calm water. If lower body movement is the main force, then I wonder why much paddle purchase is necessary at all. I suspect that--in my case at least--in those conditions (a) I don't get the paddle parallel to the boat for a strong sweep initiation, and (b) I am unconsciously going for short/sharp snap up because I know that it's not the time to dilly-dally, being upside-down and moving towards a rock or a drop. Or simply the feel of little paddle purchase makes me automatically go to Plan B.
Whatever the reason, I agree that learning more than one variation of a roll makes it more robust.
combat rolls
Due to some (yet unresolved) deficiency in my river reading/running department, I had a fair amount of combat rolling recently! 
“The real question is why the sweep doesn’t always get the boat starting to roll back up in white water”
- The water is foamy and doesn’t support the paddle: Not much you can do about that except strong hip snap to compensate reduced paddle support
- The current holds the paddler & paddle below the surface: To start a sweep NOT in a proper setup position actually works. But it takes a strong hip snap ANd combined, as you observed, “deep high brace”.
- The paddle was not at a climbing angle – we all cock our wrist forward to get the paddle into a climbing angle to start with. But that works best when the boat and paddler are on flat water. When the boat is being rocked by the water, it could result in paddle being actually in a diving angle.
In all of the cases, a strong C2C still works since it requires the least amount of paddle support. I’m suspecting that’s why the WW community was so adamant about it. On the other hand, with many of us “over-the-hill” older population getting in or continuing on doing WW, many gravitate towards more paddle-supported style of rolls for energy efficiency.
I know when I’m doing a drop-pool style river, I’m a lot more relaxed and tend to do a more efficient sweep roll. Knowing if I fail my roll, I’ll simply be drifting into flat water which is even easier to try again, I’m more inclined to save energy. But if I capsized in the middle of rapid and knowing there’re rocks along my path, I have every intention to make my first attempt count! I tend to do a modified C2C if I’m already in a setup position. And if I had trouble getting my body up to the surface to initiate a sweep, a C2C with “deep high brace” is what I go for!
thank you. good stuff