Flatpick
Lets see if i can tempt you…
I’ll get a bushell of oysters and we can steam them at the house this weekend and then do a lake paddle (Lake Murray)-or head for the ocean.
Actually have you paddled Lake Greenwood? Seems like a real pretty lake up by you in Easley. (About 19 miles from Saluda actually)
Paul
I got a T-165 because of BrazilBrazil
in all the boats I own or have paddled the T-165 allows the easiest layback on the back deck…technically its my youngest daughters and the oldest did her first rolls in it. I’m so impressed with it that I’m considering one in composite (to save my back)…I only wish WS would consider adding a 4th hatch directly in front of the cockpit opening into a shallow knee tube…then it would be the perfect kayak.
Kajaksport
makes a knee tube that fits in this space. now if WS put it in just think about how many folks would hit their knees on it and NOT have enough room to exit?
=:-0)
personally I have an under the deck bag in a couple of my boats. soft, pliable and great for small stuff in the cockpit. I also have a sturdy fanny pack behind the seat.
steve
T165
I’m thinking about the same thing that medicineman mentioned. T165 for my daughter and me.
I got to paddle a 165 last weekend at WCSKS, and gotta tell ya, I really liked it! It fit me well. I’m pretty sure the distance between the seat hangers, width at the hips, is the same for the 165 and 170. Pretty sure the dimensions of the cockpit opening are the same, too. Steve S. can confirm or correct this statement. The difference is one inch lower front deck height for the 165, so one inch lower in the thighs. I would prefer an inch less deck hight in the 170 anyway, so I get that in the 165.
Like others say, you have to try it to know. The 165 fit me a lot better than I thought it would.
At my weight it rolled like a cheater greenland rolling boat, every bit as well as the Romany. (As I write this, I realize that I neglected to try a balance brace. Oh well.)
I weight the boat down too much of course, so it would probably be a problem in rear quartering chop. Waves would grab the deck and push the stern around. I’ve experienced that problem in a Romany. But for a boat for my daughter, and a cheater greenland rolling boat for me, I think this is probably the one. Much better fit out of the box for me than the Romany. With the hip pads in, my daughter finds the fit very good too. Would be easy to switch back and fourth between us. She’s something like 5’ 5", 145 lb, I think. Go figure, same boat fits us both, just by removing the hip pads.
Paul
t-170
i’ve owned a T-170 since 2003 and really like the boat—I use it for professionally guiding sea kayak trips and for my own personal enjoyment. Contrary to what some are saying above I have never experienced excessive weathercocking in the boat—I do tend to put the skeg half way down when going down wind but on those occasions when I haven’t I have noticed no problems–HOWEVER I do notice a problem with lee cocking in heavy winds and high seas but only with an empty boat—when loaded with gear there is no problem----I have developed sufficient technique to handle this problem when it does occur but it is still annoying—also learned to put the skeg up when going into a wind quartering over my bow—the only time I’ve noticed the lee cocking—I’ve been told by some who claim to know that I’m too small for the 170 and should go with the 165 but at 6’0" and 180 lbs I tend to doubt it----as somebody else told me its a matter of developing the proper technique( bow rudder combined with a forward stoke on same side and forward sweep on the opposite—also a duffleck-sp?–works the best) Any way if I were goint to get a boat just for day paddles I would lean towards the Romany or the Avocet.
Aqua Man…specs?
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 10:10 AM EST –
Hey Aqua...that's great information. But you left out the important specs: YOUR weight, ht. inseam, foot size...
I'm 174 lbs, 5'9"...average size 9 feet...and I find the T170 to sit somewhat high for my taste. Definitely considering the T165...so it would be good to know the basis of your experience.
Thanks.
Cockpit Length
On the 165 and 170’s that I have paddled the 170’s have had a longer cockpit.
Here ya go
I stated weight and height in my post way above. Don’t blame ya for missing that.
6’2", 225 lb, 38" waist, 31" inseam, but footpegs are almost always not long enough by about 1". I removed them in my T170 fiberglass and foamed out the bulkhead. 11 shoe.
Paul
actually…
only by 1/4" and that’s width.
34" long both.
steve
weight
you should be fine in following seas, paul. long as you are packing light day kit. a heavy weight weekender you might have some issues but Cindy regularly paddles with 25o lb. total weight (her and kit not including the boat)
steve
Thanks…
Appreciate that. I’ve got to demo the T165 now…definitely sense that it might be a better match than the T170.
Thanks.
Paddled both on several occasions
even owned part of a T170 for a day or so. I’m 5’8" and currently 170lbs and still dropping. The times I’ve paddled a T170 an T165 I’ve been between 195 and 205lbs. At that weight I still prefer the T165, mostly because I didn’t need the extra volume of the T170 (size 8.5-9 shoe). At your height and weight the T165 gets the nod IMHO, unless you are going to be using the boat for extended camping trips or loaded to the gills 90% of the time.
Paddle both if you can.
~wetzool
Must be the seat…
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 5:02 PM EST –
....placement or deck height because I could get into the 170 butt-first but not into the 165. How much lower is the 165 deck height? Is the seat placement the same relative to the cockpit? Can the 165 seat be moved back?
That would be good news if true.
I'm picking up a 165 demo after work so I'll check that out.
Thanks for the alternative view.
I’m not the OP, but I really appreciate hearing from people who experience things differently than I do. Makes me think. I’m sure a major factor is a difference in our abilities. I wonder if any of it is in trim. I only do day trips so far and usually put everything in the day hatch.
I’ve talked to three other paddlers who looked at me cross-eyed when I said I thought the T-170 weather cocked too much. One is a BCU 5*, about 200 lb. He doesn’t own a T170 but has paddled one on several occasions on week-long trips in the PNW. The other is a part time professional guide and coach, also in the PNW, about 220 lb. (Don’t know about his certs.) He has the T170 and likes the T180 for extended trips. The other was at SSTIKS, about 180 lb. I didn’t know the guy but he clearly had better paddle skills than I do. They all felt the T170 was very well behaved in all conditions, and did a double take when I said I thought it weather cocked too much. I’m sure they edge and stroke accordingly without even thinking about it, and so the weather cocking is not past their personal comfort zone. Something for me to aspire too.
Appreciated the comments on specific strokes you use, too. I’ll have to look up the duffleck.
Paul
PS: Sheesh, I just thought of a fourth one, 255 lbs, but the boat probably doesn’t acutally experience weather cocking with him in it :).
Well Gosh, Steve…
…I just laid a tape on two different 165’s and one 170, all glass boats that I have been in. The inside coaming length on the 165 was right close to 31" and the 170 was right at 33". Are those all old models? Do new Tempests all sport 34" cockpits?
d’oh
I was talking roto and my measurements are outside.
sorry. youse right!
steve
yes
seat’s can be moved. takes grinding/ cutting off the back of the seat pan and a couple holes drilled in the seat (NOT the deck)
the 165 has a lower deck and therefore less room.
steve
i’m a nobody to argue with Flatpick…
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 11:21 PM EST –
but I've installed knee tubes in several kayaks...its the depth of the tube that matters...the depth of the knee tube in the Lincoln Eggemoggin is at most 2inches at the deepest point and in no way interfers with entry or exits- and this kayak has a quasi ocean cockpit. The knee tube in the QCC700 (a Kajaksport knee tube) is huge in depth but the deck height of the QCC allows for a tube that can swallow a coverall cag.....obviously it will never happen at WS yet MANY other manufacturers have seen the advantage of a clean deck and the use of the wasted space between the legs. The knee tube in my Q-boat is deep, not as deep as the Kajaksport model but far deeper than the one in the Lincoln....so its proportion and of course placement of the tube, sometimes the tube needs to be placed closer to the bulkhead but of course not so far you cant reach the hatch....what I especially like about the tube in the Q-boat is it allows another place to brace against and the knee tube only makes the deck stronger.
My .02
differ
One of the reasons I love ocean cockpits is because you can brace anywhere you want. I have an underdeck bag that i use on the Outer Island and the Tempest 165 occasionally but in both cases I know I won’t be bracing against it because my knees are pretty locked into the thigh braces. I would not want an underdeck or tube with a hatch in an ocean cockpit environment.
I am trying to think of the things you would find essential to be able to access on open water through the small hatch that you couldn’t carry on your pfd, and you as a micro minimalist backpacker probably already have sunscreen and bug goop in micro bottles, etc. so what is the tube for?
FWIW: I carry a small deck light in mine and some playtex gloves, but really can’t find much else I would want to have that close at hand that is not already firmly attached to my pfd.
maybe rolled up maps? Is it that long? but then again I couldn’t access them through the hatch anyway.
paul
what to put in
flare, radio, camera, sunscreen, energy gell and yes I’ve mixed deet:skin-so-soft 50:50 and put in 3ml tubes that go in the knee hatch too…well that’s what goes in the knee tube in the Eggemoggin.
That plus a coveral cag in the huge tube in in QCC.
The goal is to clean the deck. I’ve lost too much crap to waves/surf over the years to keep anything on deck and I challenge any paddler to reach around and open the day hatch when in shit water…but you can do it with the 4th hatch and if you spill all you’ll take on is what a quart of water…
The bonus of a stronger deck is just that and most decks are strong enough anyway, bracing against the tube depends on the size of the tube, really hard to know its there in the Eggemoggin but def. there in the QCC.
Like I’ve said before, some progressive manufacturers have grasped the concept, embraced it, incorporated it. Some never will. Yep big big big money to change the molds but at one time these same manufacturers thought the world was flat 