Good ? Tacoma
The Tempest was my third boat purchase. I started with a low end rec, then a Wildy Kaos and finally the Tempest. First yak I ever sat in was a 17’ Perception something probably 5 or 6 years ago. Can’t remember what. I’m sure it was a nice boat, but wasn’t a good choice for a beginner. But that’s how you learn. Not just about boats, but about what to believe and who to believe. That first shop sent me out in a boat I wasn’t ready for and without any safety gear, like a paddle float, bilge pump, whistle, etc. How about they didn’t even ask where we were taking their boats! My first capsize was on some low end rapids. Probably shouldn’t have been doing that on my first paddle with no guide, etc. Then I rented a number of boats and also paddled a couple at work as a yak lifeguard for the swimming portion of triathlons. (can I tell you how wierd it is when a couple hundred swimmers fly past you and you’re trying not to whack 'em in the head with your paddle?) But you definitely learn to set your boat when a struggling swimmer flops on your bow. Anyway, before I even started kayaking I rowed 4s and 8s on my college crew team. I figure if I can handle capsizing with 8 other women I can handle doing it in my own kayak. This is not to say that I am graceful, far from it, just that I am willing to get wet.
I still think favorably of the Tsunami line. And I will always remember the day I tested it as a great day. But trying to go back to it didn’t work out. I’m glad, immensely glad, I made the jump to the Tempest. Maybe I’m lucky. The Tempest has yet to feel twitchy to me. I feel like the Tempest works with the water (especially as it gets choppier) rather than against it. Do you remember those spherical compasses on keychains? They’re balls inside a plasic sphere that’s filled with water and as you move the compass around the inner ball might spin or jive but fairly quickly settled comfortably? Mobil used to give them out before they merged with Exxon. I loved those when I was a kid and ever since then when I feel off balance I find myself thinking of those. That eventually I’ll just settle into place, find the right orientation. If you don’t remember these you probably think I’m smoking something by this point. But that’s how I feel in a kayak. That if I let myself relax and be part of the kayak we’ll just settle in together. Are you sure that you are letting yourself “wear” the kayak? That concept doesn’t make sense until it does. I mean it literally happens and a minute later you go, doh, I get it now. Are you using your hips and your torso? The Tempest can really scoot along when you work with it.
BTW, didn’t know about that hard chine. Haven’t tried the 170. Any chance you could try the 165 or something comparable? Maybe it’s not the Tsunami OR the Tempest for you. Maybe your boat is still out there…
thanks lira…
your a much more experienced person than me. It is funny you should ask about the fit of the 170. I was not cinched into the boat with WS amazing seat when I had it out. The salesperson and I didn’t know enough to do that. The second sales guy pushing the tsunami did cinch me into the boat. I tell you, those WS seats feel like gloves when you are cinched into them. So, I might have felt less unstable had I been cinched properly into the 170. Time for another test drive!
People mention here about learning kayak skills, but man, classes are so very expensive around here. 250$ and up for a few hours basic skills training. The top line, multi-day sessions go for a couple grand. Not sure how to pick up skills without breaking teh bank. Of course, I’ve checked out a few books from teh library.
I certainly do remember thouse key chain ball compases!
height, weight
5 10, 190 pounds…
The Tsunami now, the Tempest later…
Greyak summed it up nicely.
You can buy the Tsunami now and feel comfy, but if you are paddling with folks in real sea kayaks and plan on gaining greater proficiency paddling, you will be buying a sea kayak (quite likely a Tempest) next year.
IT’S LIKE WE HEAR YOU SAYING
I WANT the Tempest, but I'm afraid of it a little bit... What if it isn't stable and the twitch gets me? What if I can't take a pic on the water? What if I can't handle it? What if, what if, what if...
And then you wrote:
"People mention here about learning kayak skills, but man, classes are so very expensive around here. $250 and up for a few hours basic skills training. The top line, multi-day sessions go for a couple grand. Not sure how to pick up skills without breaking teh bank. Of course, I've checked out a few books from teh library."
Greyak & Barzilbrasil are two, now rather well-skilled, paddlers. I've only seen parts of Kris's evolution, mainly by witnessing the parade (and I do mean PARADE, LOL!) of boats though his small apartment and life. I've seen more of Paul's, both in the lineup of boats he has (and seems to still be acquiring, *L*) and his skill set by paddling with him off & on over the past 13 months. He started off in an OT Rush -a 9'^" X 32" rec boat, graduated to the Tempest 170 after WE talked him out of a Tsunami...
In both cases, the main sources of their "instruction" was a book or video, and a desire & willingness to practice.
So too it can be with you. You don't absolutely need to shell out big bucks for instructions.
Sally & I started out in SOTs. We now drive relatively skinnier SINKs. We even have (and Sally paddles far better than I, and both Grayak & BB admity to it being a twitchy boat) a 17' X 21" South African glass SOT that's a cross between a regular SOT & a ski.
We would suggest you go with the Tempest. The reason Sally & I have SINKs is precisely so we can do what you want to: keep uyp with the Joneses on group paddles without exhausting yourself.
Heck, Steve (Flatpick, above, who also give some good advice) had a heavy hand in the design of both, and sugggests the Tempest.
Just getting seat time is a good teacher if you, as someone above noted, "pay attention" and learn a bit with each outing.
So don't be so fearful, and go with what you seem to really want: a better boat to
PADDLE ON!
-Frank in Miami
Hakuna matata!
You have received some great advice in this thread. I’ll ad my .02 as well.
I believe the simplest approach would be for you to rent a Tempest 170 for the day, take a lesson in it and spend some time in it. You will be amazed at how the tippiness of a boat increases as you anticipate, AND dissipates as you develop a relationship with it.
I had a RM Tempest 170, and think it is a great boat. I purchased it used, then sold it and built a boat. Before purchasing, you might want to consider the ‘demo, demo, demo’ route. It is a lot of fun.
Enjoy…
Bob
and…
the EDUcation part is an important aspect of ‘improving’ your learning curve.
If the local instruction is actually $250 for a couple hours or $2,000 for a multi day course look beyond this institute. George may get away with it but most good EDU should run $100-150 a day and if it’s an accredited course will be worth the $$$.
Tacoma, WA?
check out secondwindsports.com, aldercreek.com, bodyboatblade.com
steve
Yup
We’ve seen a lot of posts on this board from folks whose “tippy” kayaks miraculously became much more stable after some butt-in-boat time. It does take a while to relax enough to let the boat move under you instead of always fighting to be perfectly upright.
Another great stability booster is learning good recovery strokes, including rolling. Once you get over your fear of capsizing, you’re much less likely to capsize unintentionally.
Y-R-P
YURP.
understanding the YAW-ROLL-PITCH planes.
fundamental stuff in the EDU process.
when one begins the journey the roll plane is this great ‘unknown’. OMG what if I tip??? heaven forbid.
=:-0)
then when one understands that tip is good and it ain’t so darn important to have your head over your body all the time and tip is edge and…
go take a friggin’ lesson, already!
steve
My 2 cents
"classes are so very expensive around here. $250 and up for a few hours basic skills training. The top line, multi-day sessions go for a couple grand"
In the expensive NY area, day classes are about $80. And I took a 2.5 day symposium for $300 (a few years ago). Also, check out clubs for lessons. (Lessons will make the Tempest shine.)
If you are really interested in sea kayaking and you don't want to keep purchasing boats, buy the Tempest. You won't ever -need- to buy another boat. (And there's really nothing wrong with plastic.)
If you are a bit athletic and you get the sense of keeping your upper body loose from your lower body, you'll get used to the basic "twitchiness" fairly quickly. You'll have to be a bit more careful taking photos in the Tempest compared to the Tsunami but how often are you really going to do that? Also, if you are paddling with other people, you can ask them to stabilize you while you are taking photos. In rough water, any boat is will be a risky platform for photography.
Heck, after a while, you will likely prefer "twitchy" boats.
Dude, you are overthinking this! No boat will be perfect and there's a bit of risk in any purchase! Buy the Tempest and start paddling!
Dude, man up and buy the Tempest…
already. That is, unless you want to be a perma-newbie. It’s not a boat you can outgrow. Flatpick listed some really good coaching outfits, contact them. Skip the gold plated 250 per day guy, whoever he is. What a gouge. Consider joining a local club like WA Kayak or PSPN.
Dogmaticus
skills without breaking the bank
Lessons are great if you have time and $. Generally I have neither (or not together). This hasn't prevented me from getting comfortable in narrower beam kayaks, learning to roll on both sides and even building a boat and a couple paddles. Mostly I learn solo, and in occasional group play/practice sessions.
Of course, I have very warm water all year which allows unschooled fools a lot of safety margin. In PNW, lesons offer a much better cost to benefit ratio.
Go for the Tempest 170
At 190 and 5’10" you don’t want the 165. You will grow into the boat and surprisingly fast. I’m a big fan of buying used boats, after all I’m the one that bought Bob’s (Singalong2) 170. I’m not looking to cheat the dealer out of a sale- you have made him work after all. Since you’re not sure, if you pick up a used 170 at a good price and don’t like it, you can sell it for little or no loss and get the the Tsunami.
P.S. Hey Bob, when are you going to join me on the Hudson. I know it’s a good hike for you but almost all of it is on 84 and it is an awfully pretty paddle.—Rich Gallagher
Have you…
Tried anything similar to the tempest? I’ve heard good stuff about the Current Designs Scirocco(16’10,skeg) what about a P&H Capella plastic? both are going for less $ than WS.
Noooo!
Noooo! Don't go there!
There are lots of good boats. You could spend a lifetime trying them out.
TacomaPaddler has tried many boats already and he likes the Tempest and it's a good boat.
lets see
the tempest is 26$ more than a capella…and a scirroco is 126$ less…
outfitting and comfort wise i still would go with the tempest…
but then again i am biased…
Twitchy?
The Tempest isn’t twitchy at all.
You probably need more paddling time/experience. Instuction, too.
Assumptions
We’re used to people trying to sell us stuff that goes beyond our needs, but the other way around does happen, and it’s just as frustrating.
For my first mountain bike, a salesperson tried to convince me to buy a lower-level model than the one I was interested in. She just did not pick up on the fact that my previous 12 years of road riding/racing/touring experience made me NOT a typical beginner to mountain biking. I ignored her and bought the model I wanted elsewhere…and then quickly outgrew that one! (It was overly stable/laidback in handling, just like many beginner kayaks–not responsive enough.)
Beginner sports toys tend to be designed for people with average (or less) balance, coordination, fitness, strength, diligence. If you are above average in ANY of these, do not get a beginner toy unless you are prepared to sell it and get something else fairly soon.
Fun balancing acts
Yup, making a SOT out of a SINK is fun.
Also try LeeG’s suggestion: sit ON the rear deck just in back of the coaming and paddle it that way! Even tippier than the SOT-from-SINK trick. Don’t try this if you have an ultralight kayak and are a heavy person, though.
I also like to ditch the paddle and do sculling braces with my hands while edging the boat. Works better on some kayaks than others (or maybe it’s just me!). Lotsa fun in my Prijon Twister cuz it’ll spin around in circles doing sweeps with my arms. Works fine in my Tempest 165.
thank you frank…
for your insights and thougtfulness. That’s it–I want a tempest but am a little scared. So, steve–flatpick–is the famous steve who designed the tempest? And used to own the kayak shop in Portland (adler creek?)