Wilso, whats up?
Man you have some sort of fascination with Brit boats, stickers, logo’s, and even their POS cars!
You even seem to worship their guru’s. I like you, based on your posts, buy gosh you seem really wierd about this Brit stuff… Who gives a shit? I’ve got some distirbing news…The Brits didn’t discover sea kayaking!, and your Gurus are not even close to being noteworthy paddlers… Sorry 
Narrow Obsessions…
– Last Updated: May-18-06 7:35 AM EST –
seems kinda of weird to me, be it about "Brit" or Go Native, or anything else. (Of course, my obsession is perfectly fine... :) )
Dragging other folks into it seems uncalled for. NF, ND, or that Ole Guy selling a hatchet of a paddle have nothing to do with this. They selling stuff but not recruiting cultists that I am aware off.
sing
Bad night Salty?
– Last Updated: May-18-06 9:34 AM EST –
Obviously I do favor Brit boats. This is from my experience paddling them. I came to favor them in the process of persuing skills as a paddler.
I've never owned a British car, my favorite cars I've owned have been Swedish.
I don't follow anyone as a guru, though I have great respect for Tom Bergh who has had major impact on my approach to paddling.
I think Tom is a note worthy paddler. In addition to his contributions to the advancement of sea kayaking and training in the US, his Antarctic sojourn with Nigel Dennis is notable. Your perspective is obviously different.
BTW Tom is American.
What year is the Pintail?
Older boats with flat aft decks and the old-style, rounder hulls are in demand by Pintail afficiandos.
hatchet?
– Last Updated: May-18-06 10:04 AM EST –
bludgeon, cudgel, club, an outstanding shovel on more than one occassion and even a fairly decent paddle...although any upper body strength i have should be creditted to years of carrying that HEAVY, HEAVY thing around.
for all that, i loved it till i tried the lendals...which i still love but wow, ain't some of those foam core werners nice....
and so it goes.
Narrow Obsessions…
Well, I have been asked to never mention rolling again on this board…
time for a name change…
salty, I think you need to change your name to cranky. Man you got some angst. I notice you tend to rant quite a bit with little provocation. You must be the greatest paddler on earth from the way you carry yourself. Congrats.
It’s old school - flat deck
I have the papers somewhere. It’s a '91 or maybe ‘94. Definitely doesn’t show its’ age.
club? hatchet?
More like a sledge hammer! Your magic club has been happy at it’s new home. I’m still using a Werner but I like the club/shovel and it makes an indestructable spare.
You’re supposed to own two paddles for every boat you own, right?
Don’t participate…
In as much of a non-belligerent manner as I can (I don’t get into forum spats)I would like to add to the previous post…if you don’t like or agree with what is being discussed in a post then please just ignore it and move on.
Just as with my post about the Explorer and the Aquanaut in which you made a similar comment, if you think that it is a stupid question and worthless discussion / waste of time then please don’t waste your time participating. The rest of us “geeks” are enjoying the conversation despite whether or not you think it is of value.
Please take this as constructive criticism.
Matt
Well,
I usually try to offer helpful advice, encouragement etc., but I do react to the geek bullshit. It’s a seemingly endless masturbation about commodity boats and old guru’s.
It is time for me to leave ya’ll alone…
Finally…the best boats are not sold retail, or mass produced…the best paddlers are the strongest athletes…Barton, Chalupski etc., and it doesn’t matter how many stars or stickers you have…the sea doesn’t care.
it qualifies
as a WMD.
I’m going to propose
"Old Salt"
WMD?
Wasted Momentum Device?
Weight Mostly Detrimental?
Way More Dense?
Why Make Difficult?
Warrants Much Derision?
"If the salt loses its savor,
“how shall it be made salty again? It is good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.”
We all need a crotchety old uncle to keep us on the straight and narrow every now and then.
Sorry, that makes no sense.
– Last Updated: May-18-06 12:17 PM EST –
If you "like or agree with what is being discussed" - then there's really not much to post about. Threads like this would be all back slapping and glad handing from a bunch of Britwits. Discussion implies considering different points from different perspectives.
Salty has a lot of useful comments on the boards. Solid information - and gets right to it. Many here simply don't appreciate that directness, or differing opinions from anyone who doesn't play suck up and express their ideas in as PC a manner as possible.
Variety is the spice of life, and there's room for a little salt in these "discussions". Take it with same.
Not localized phenomenon
– Last Updated: May-18-06 2:25 PM EST –
Wilso:
The increase in Brit boat ownership in your group is really not a phenomenon . . . it is the classic influence that leaders and advanced group members have on the rest of the group. In your group, the core leaders not only paddle Brit boats, but very enthusiastically express the advantages. As with any group, members look up to advanced members' preferred brands, whether boats, PFDs, drysuits, or hydration packs. There is both positive and negative of this of course . . .the core members do have super boat and paddling knowledge so they can help others get into great quality boats. Negative because IMO, many new or intermediate paddlers can blindly follow the leaders without their own research, and assume that only Brit boats are good, eliminating from consideration, a number of other choices. In summary, the phenomenon you describe in your group is occcurring because you yourself and the leaders have been the driver. Let's face it, until recently, there were no Brit boat dealers in our area. No advertising. Why would members have suddenly bought Brit, right?
The preliminary dominance of Swift boats is also no mystery - the only touring kayak brand sold by the only kayak store in your area was Swift. Most people don't travel far to purchase a boat, and with the retailer also being a club leader, it was convenient and courteous to buy Swift. It's not that eveyone did an exhaustive study and found Swift best. If the retailer sold only Necky, the group would have all been paddling Necky. The increase of P & H boats in your group is also no mystery, the retailer just became a P & H dealer.
In summary, the phenomenon you describe, a tleast in your group, is not due to some marketplace happening, national advertising, or anything market driven. It is the influuence of senior members of a paddling group. If they paddled Current Design boats, that's what everyone would buy. That happened in a sister club!
Not trying to be critical as my last sentence will support . .just clarifying that if you want to call it a phenomenon, then it is one of club member infuences.
One can relate this to pnet as well. The same core members of your group, who happen to love Brit boats, are very frequent posters on Pnet. Thus statistically, the high volume of posts about Brit boats found on P.net can be linked to owners who are very active Pnet participants.
FWW, yeh, i'm still trying to trade in my boat for a Valley or NDK. :)
This Is Where I Agree With Salty
– Last Updated: May-18-06 2:06 PM EST –
"In summary, your post might indicate some wide area trend when in fact in the area you are speaking of, the influence of advanced leaders liking Brit boats has an impact on the other club members. If the core advanced group was all paddling Current Design boats, that's what everyone would buy. That happened in a sister club!"
This is about "followers." Salty's opinion (I think) and mine is that it may have more to with a paddler's skills rather than the boat. I have a variety of "style" boats. They have different characteristics but they all pretty much work for me.
But what I do I know (except for what I paddle)..? :)
sing
Why this is wrong
Salty said: “Finally…the best boats are not sold retail, or mass produced…the best paddlers are the strongest athletes…Barton, Chalupski etc., and it doesn’t matter how many stars or stickers you have…the sea doesn’t care.”
The best boats are those you can handle in the context of what it was designed for regardless of who that was that designed it. I can think of whitewater boats approaching the term mass produced, but hesitate at even that. An Englishman in his shop making 5-600 sea kayaks doesn’t even come close to the term mass produced. This is a cottage “industry” if there ever was one.
The best athletes are the best athletes, not necessarily the best paddlers. I would never blaze past a swimmer in a rock garden, I would orchestrate a rescue. A racer would blaze past a swimmer because he or she wants to win. The best paddlers paddle well and teach well. That has a tendency to create other better paddlers. If you can’t teach your way out of a bucket, your best is a fading star that implodes the moment your joints fail. By that logic both you and I should never have been born. Of course this is an opinion.
There are labels people like to attach to things, best is one of them. Noteworthy is a term best left to the notetakers and commentators. If you think it is only the fastest that are worth taking notes of I hope you don’t plan on publishing a magazine as it would seem more boring than your posts on this board, many of which I find very entertaining. A group of explorers rounding Cape Horn I find extremely entertaining, trying to shave 10 seconds off your last time around Cape Anne I can’t even finish the article. Your comment on masturbation seems more appropriate a description. An account of a descent down the Tsangpo, definately worth buying the book. Yet again another article on the Molokai, a violation of the tree that took a bullet for the magazine.
Stars or stickers cannot impress the ocean, but their holders will sure as hell be impressed moreso by the ocean and how they behave on it for all the time they spent acquiring them. It is a noteworthy example of a system that is doing its best at trying to elevate the kayaking culture from the legions of bullshit it suffers from.
I’m not a groupie of anyone or any thing. I routinely enjoy going with and across the grain. I enjoy your posts and hope you continue to do so, blunt trauma or not. This is the written word in a democratic republic, thick skins need apply.
Augustus Dogmaticus
MMVI
One last comment
I am grumpy…burned out really. I peruse these boards as I still genuinely love sea kayaking, surfing etc. The message I’ve tried to convey repeatedly is simply that the boat is just the boat. They are all fine, and so much is subjective based on so many variables. I’ve owned many Brit boats and tested dozens of kayaks for Sea Kayaker, manufacturers etc., and I strongly believe that there are many excellent choices, and no one is the answer.
I am a Brit by the way…and if you grew up with that food you’d be grumpy too. As for the gurus. Cool people who’ve paddled a lot and done cool trips, so I am not dimminishing them at all. One is a friend. Likewise I’ve paddled with Bergh and like him very much. I’m just trying to say that in the big world of paddling there are amazing athletes doing things in boats that is astonishing.
To me Sea Kayaking is entrenched in tradition and could benefit from some new designs, and some radical changes in boat concepts. I think of friends who are superb surfers, WW boaters, creekers, etc. Put any of these folk in a touring boat and a few days later they are awesome…Problem is they are bored with the boats. There’s really nothing new out there that I can see.
I would encourage some of you to paddle on a long journey in whatever boat you have. To me that is the joy of paddling, and that’s when all the techno stuff fades.
Lastly, I apologize for offending some of you. You have every right to be enthusiastic about whatever… I’m out. Happy boating!