don’t leave…
Salty,
You have valuable insights and experiences that many of us benefit from your sharing.
You have a world of knowledge that few of us can approach.
You have the ability to humble a poster (me included) when that person gets ahead or above their actual knowledge or references.
It is all give and take here. This board is far more civilized than many. We all have edgier days at times. Believe me, I know. I’ve apologized to more than one poster here when I realized I was over the line.
I ask that you reconsider your withdrawal from posting on p.net.
phenomenon
– Last Updated: May-18-06 3:53 PM EST –
1. a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen (OED)
Yes I realize that more paddlers persuing deeper sea kayaking skills gravitate towards the equipment that those who have desired skills or experience use or recommend.
I also realize that as the most local of outfitters is a Swift dealer, that many local paddlers bought locally rather than researching or venturing a few miles.
I am not puzzled about any of this. I think Evan's work in providing skills training that is accessible and enjoyable has had the single biggest impact (I think I noted that somewhere).
I think the change in nature of boats people are paddling is as connected to their interest in deeper skills as much as it is anything else.
Unfortunately, no one has emulated Evan in getting an Outer Island.
Finally:
"Don't follow leaders. Watch your parking meters"
-Bob Dylan
Group think vs. going solo
Yeah, all good points. It’s not so much what you know as who you know.
Mostly paddling alone, I’ve apparently not been so strongly influenced by other’s gear choices. Not that I’m immune - just that I am not locally biased, and not into one type of paddling.
Brands? I’ve owned Stearns, WS, Heritage, QCC, Valley, Tsunami, Findeisen (some locality/availability issue there), Custom Kayaks, and one custom made one of a kind SOF. Rented NDK. Demos of more than I can remember.
Types owned? 1 inflatable rec, 1 plastic SOT, 3 composite SOT, 2 Surf Skis, 3 composite Sinks (one keyhole, one ocean, one in-between), and one SOF.
Paddles? So far 7 or so Euros, 6 GP, 3 Wings.
Trends? None I’m aware of following - beyond a steady shift toward narrower, lighter, and lower volume (whittling away what’s not needed). I let the gear teach me as I go. SOF is definitely changing things. Things that may make it very hard to find equivalently enjoyable production offerings from any country. (In regards to the mass produced comments above - in kayaking, anything with identical hulls comming from plans or molds counts as mass produced IMO! 500 of same non-rec hull would be HUGE.)
Next? Sell a couple off! Then maybe a Surf kayak if there were any surf here, maybe a different ski (V10 Sport/S1-R), maybe another SOF, ideally a custom self designed hardshell generated from lessons learned from the mixed fleet approach…
Barton is obviously awesome
but you should see him in white water, not a pretty sight. However, take any ranked slalom boater and put him in a ski and they do well.
Tom Bergh was a mentor of mine as well, and I have the utmost respect for his abilities, judgement, and character.
Correction…
All:
I apologize if my previous post was misunderstood and I accept responsibility if my wording was not clear.
By no means was I trying to tell Salty not to participate in Pnet! I would have no right to do so. I hope he did not take it that way. I imagine he did not, but it appears that others might have.
Please forgive me if it came across this way.
My intended message was simply that if there is a particular post whose subject you think is not worthwhile and a waste of time to discuss, then don’t waste your time replying to the post / don’t “participate” in the given conversation. It would be like overhearing a bunch of people discussing a subject you disapproved of and then telling them they should not be talking about it in the first place.
Furthermore, I agree that discenting opinions are good…when they add value to the post. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Attacking the subject of the post and implying that those interested in the post are ignorant for their participation does not necessarily add value…although there may be instances where that is not true and perhaps this is one of them.
I was not trying to convey that Salty should not participate in the forums and did not mean for it to be taken that way, nor did I mean to imply that there is no room for disagreement.
I participate in many forums. This was probably my first post suggesting any negative sentiments / criticism. I don’t like to get involved in online arguments. I find them to be unprofessional, unnecessary, and of little value. I hope that I have not started one here. I am sorry if I have.
Now…let’s all be friends and talk about paddling.
Matt
There are reasons
As one of the recent Brit boat purchasers, I have to say it’s because the boat does what I need it to. I started with a Chessie 17, built a Greenland SOF and a Baidarka. All are interesting and fun to paddle. As I became a Greenland stick user and worked real hard on some rolling skills, the need cropped up for a relatively low volume, bulkheaded, low behind the cockpit boat (not to mention the day hatch, which is grrrreatttt!). I’m loving the Aquanaut so far, though I feel a bit like a sell-out, paddling a commercial boat. When I have time, I’ll build a proper boat that will do what the Naut does…until then, I’m happy with the Brit.
Alan
Salty you blew it man!
apologise, give an explanation for your off the cuff comments? ahhhh! why? why bother, it’s not like you are slapping someone in the face, this is the internet man, say what you want, these folks are all big people, no real harm, no foul. you didn’t cuss anyone out for crissake. for the few people on here who bring some levity and irreverence mixed in with their critical insight, let it roll man! think of how many times greyak would be backtracking!!
'don’t waste your time replying’
Matt,
I think you were clear in your post.
I agree that being no one is obligated to reply to a post/thread, it can be self-agrandizing or arrogant for someone to respond to a query or observation in a demeaning or assaultive manner.
I don’t post on most threads here because I don’t know enough about the subject or I don’t find it worthwhile or of interest. I think that is true of most of us.
But…
I too watches with interest how brit kayaks are getting more popular around this place.
However it’s beyond me why most of these boats are considered expert boats. Now even a beginner can keep his balance in Romany / Avocet style of boat(they both paddle like barges). I usually put newbies I introduce to the sport into one of the club’s Avocets. I’d say its easier to stand up in a Romany Explorer than it is to just sit in my racing boat without supporting with the paddle.
And what’s with the beam of these boats? One need a big butt or multiple layers of foam to fill out these boats.
No wonder if brit-kayak-paddlers will drift to SOF kayaks for narrow, quicker, lower volume and more sexy boats.
/Peter
Even More "Narrow…"
hey, when I post about surfing nor’easters in the dead of winter, I can count on maybe two or three replies, one of which will say outright that I am “stupid” and have a “death wish…” But to be fair, the flatwater racers don’t get much more replies/interest either. (Ahh… I feel better. 
)
Rolling… For some it’s almost an “end” in itself, with mutliple variations to acquire. Those who can’t roll and don’t want to, find the topic “elitist.” Others see a dependable roll as the admisssion ticket to do other things… Like surfing nor’easters. Then the folks who think rolling is “elitist” can now say folks who surf, never mind paddle in winter, as macho death defying idiots…
And so it goes in the PNet universe.
sing
Price and location?
Where is it located and how much are you asking? I’ll spread the word among the local cognoscenti.
Width of…
Having gone from one of what was considered a relatively narrow North American sea kayak (CD Squall) to two brit boats, the latter are narrower. Yes, these are all wider than something like a racing boat and the Romany hull has quite forgiving primary. It was designed to be a boat for Nigel Dennis to use in lessons, so that was a desirable feature. But the older North American-made designs commonly had 24 inch beams, while the average brit boat anyone is talking about these days usually runs closer to 22 inches.
As to how forgiving the Romany/Explorer hull is, after it feels OK for a beginner an advanced paddler can take that same boat out and drop on its side in the worst shit out there and it’ll respond well. Whatever configuration of the stars was involved in Dennis’s getting that hull right for a schooling and expedition boat, they sure did work. I very much like the Avocet too, but frankly the seat area is definitively too wide for me compared to the seat in my Explorer LV (the LV has the same hull and seat, just lower and smaller cockpit opening). I keep feeling like the Avocet would be perfect for me as a play boat if you gave it a true keyhole cockpit like the NDK boats and shaved an inch off of each side up by the seam.
Nigel Foster boats tend to run narrower in the seat than either, or P&H.
Either of these seats are a lot narrower than those in say the older CD Storm - but that’s really getting to be a nonsequitor. In general newer sea kayaks are coming into that 22 inch width or less range now, no matter who is making them.
As to Salty, give him a break. Everyone has a cranky day, especially since most of the people in this fray are likely old enough to be waking up on cold mornings with one or another joint that doesn’t bend quite as well as it did 20 years ago.
cranky 2
– Last Updated: May-19-06 8:17 AM EST –
Yup, my post perhaps reflected some crankiness as well. So I'll take a moment to add to my post that I guess there is a phenomenon per Wilsoj2 post - pertaining to his region, the phenomenon is Evan. Evan has advanced the knowledge, enthusiasm and skills of many paddlers, new and old, in his region! Super job!
As for his Outer Island. . . Considering how easy it rolled for me, I still ponder this boat to own. My only issue is the turning.
beginner can keep his balance in Romany
Exactly!
The Romany was designed as a schooling boat. The great aspect is that it is also such a capable boat in challanging conditions.
Good boats are purpose built/designed. By that I mean they support their primary intended use very well.
One would have to be masochistic to race using a Romany just as one would have to be to take a racing kayak into the snotty condtions in which a Romany excels.
BTW, have you ever paddled a Nigel Foster Rumour?
Two comments
I’m sure an advanced paddler can take an Explorer out in the worst conditions. Likewise an advanced paddler can take a Vyneck into the same conditions and still be safe. Difference is that while the Explorer will be a barge in semi-calm conditions the Vyneck will be moderately lively(though still a barge compared to a racer).
The NDK boats are proven as expedition kayaks yes. But really so are a number of the Prijon monstrosities. While I’d cry if I had to use one of these boats for my daily paddles they’ve properties that makes them interesting for long trips(high volume and PE).
One of the NDK dealers in this country writes in his catalogue about the Romany: “I can still drink my coffee while I’m in 1m waves”. Oh joy…
My point isn’t to belittle the “brit” paddlers. I’d say you could do much better than what the market currently offer you guys.
/Peter
Rumour
The danish Current Design dealer has chosen not to import the Rumour, so I haven’t had a chance to test it. Sounds like a fun boat though.
As for not taking a racing kayak into conditions. True a full blood ICF K1 would be no good - too unstable, too few contact points and no buoyant bow. But a modified racer like the Nelo Razor: http://www.pogies.com/nelokayaksusa/wwwhtml/contents/tour_k1razo.htm
with a small cockpit and low aftdeck for rolling. Wouldn’t that be a dream(skeg edition for the brit fans) ?
/Peter
Nice going, Pjunold!
Sure, I thought I was almost all set with my quiver and then you have to throw that boat into the mix! (I can easily make the space in the boathouse…how can I justify a 17’ racer/trainer…the Northwest Cup Downriver Series?..hmmm).
Curious…
A few have posted stating that the Brit boats are slow / sluggish / handle like barges / not good for flat water. I respect your opinions.
I would ask then what would be the “superior” alternative for this niche (16-18 foot, good storage space, good in conditions, highly versatile, easy rolling / bracing, etc)? I think that the Brit boats fill this niche pretty well.
Matt
that’s because everyone is thinking…
about the Romany and the Romany Explorer when you mention Brit boats. I don’t think anyone would claim that a Silhouette or an Aquanaut is slow (for a non-racing sea kayak that is). Based on your question, I’m guessing someone will be mentioning QCC fairly soon…
British influence on Kayaks
Valley Canoe has set a standard years ago that is influencing all kayaks.
Over 18 years ago, Valley came out with.
- Hatch covers that didn’t leak. VCP’s
- Drop down skegs
- Glassed-in bulkheads
- moulded in seats
- Deck lines
- recessed fittings.
- the day hatch
- on board pump (debatable ?) But the advanced safety thinking was there.
All these things are now accepted or expected norms in good kayaks. Many companies are making very nice kayaks today but the heritage of these innovations and thinking came from Valley.
I’m sorry that most manufacturers have dummed-down all kayaks to the large cockpit openings only.