Rapier
Yes, and the current time record for crossing the English channel is held by the Valley Rapier.
Most boats are designed to perform well within certain parameters. An expert paddler can likely take any worthwhile boat into any conditions and survive. How much attention the boat requires varies according to the paddler, conditions, AND boat.
Would a Nelo Razor or Valley Rapier ‘disappear’ (not have to be consciously thought about) under most skilled paddlers in challanging condtions? Would either be fine for a fatigued paddler who also has to be alert to the safety of others in a pod?
Different boats for different strokes.
British influence on Kayaks - cockpits?
Was NDK the first to design keyhole cockpits for sea kayaks? It asserts so on the website.
I very much like the NDK keyhole. I wish Valley’s was as good.
Speed
People will point out that the Romany and Explorer are slow, but I don’t know if people should take that as seriously as some do as it’s all pretty relative in sea kayaks. An Explorer isn’t going to be that much slower than a Nordkapp. For example, we had a marathon here for a couple of years, the winner in the sea kayak category both years paddled an old beat up Explorer. He beat out several CD Extremes and about 60 other people paddling various boats, many not considered “barges”.
Brit Boat dominance??
I’m enjoying reading all the speculation so I’d thought I’d add my own two cents based on my limited observations made in my own limited area.
Look at the stock the retailers in your area are offering. What’s available for sale @ 16+’? Where I look it’s mostly Brit influenced designs.
People buy what’s available to scratch their itch.
Speed
– Last Updated: May-19-06 12:58 PM EST –
Sea Kayaker drag tests show less than a half pound of drag difference up through 4 knots among most sea kayaks ranging from an Epic Endurance 18 to a Necky Elaho DS. The most common average speed stated cruising in a sea kayak is 3 knots. It is at and above 4.5 knots that there is a noticable difference drag.
Often when paddling with certain friends we are cruising 4.5 to 5 knots. At these speeds I can feel the difference in glide between my Aquanaut and my Romany. When sprinting, 5-6 knots, the difference feels enormous.
Of course, the engine is the most important aspect of a kayak's speed.
???
– Last Updated: May-20-06 9:05 AM EST –
Re comments about Valley above... Seeing the screen name of jaybabina I have a great deal of respect for the person posting re the stuff that Valley did, and certainly he can paddle circles around and under me...
The biggest single reason that I don't have a Valley boat as my shorter boat is the darned oversized cockpit of the Valley boats for an average sized woman. (5'4") My first question when I tried an Aquanaut was if they made one in my size, the no-contact cockpit being much of the issue for me. I very much like the Avocet and its coming in plastic makes it a great alternative for things like surf - but again the cockpit is oversized for good contact. It is only in the most recent models that I am seeing a cockpit configuration that looks like I could adapt it decently. Partly because I don't want to go to a full ocean cockpit for a few reasons, and encounter Valley's one-size-doesn't-fit-all approach, my two boats are an NDK Explorer LV (small more aggressive keyhole cokcpit) and a P&H Vela (narrower and overall smaller).
I like these boats very much and it's possible that I may have chosen both of them again even if Valley had provided a decently fitting alternative, but since Valley didn't make a boat that competed with these on fit it wasn't a factor. If they just offered two sizes of non-ocean cockpits with a decent keyhole even...
As to hatch covers - I stand updated. Valley did it right first.
It’s listed in Classifieds here - FL
Ft. Lauderdale to be specific. $1200. Picture and link to weshots gallery in the add, or here:
http://community.webshots.com/album/188558257nOlmUm
Well, I wouldn’t…
… as I feel no need to head this into some silly Brit/QCC debate. It’s about as pointless trying to explain Q700 handing to a die hard Brit fan as it is to sell rolling as a basic skill to the hydrophobes! Even though there is probably a 90% overlap in basic hull forms and handing - and the difference debated just some fractional segment of that 10%.
Trouble is my 700 (speaking specifically about mine - as I’ve outfitted it) - does fit the description exactly: “16-18 foot, good storage space, good in conditions, highly versatile, easy rolling / bracing, etc”.
I would add confidence inspiring, predictable, lively, and fast - and in general more fun than say an Explorer of very similar dimensions. Q maybe not the best for extended surf zone play or rock gardening (need to define: “conditions”), but it was never meant to be. In anything else from sheltered to open waters it’s quite good.
Lots of good kayaks. Country of origin means little, and even less as time passes, ideas exchange, and new designs are developed. What exactly are the latest Brit designs like the Rapier 18 in response too… ?
The Brit Cult is holding Steady
I’m a Capella paddler (forever it seems as I’m on my second one) and considering buying a Island Kayak Expedition boat or a Valley Nordkapp H2o. Wondering if anyone has experience with the Island Kayak line. I’m price point driven as they seem to be on sale at SKG.
Silhouette…
Someone mentioned that the Silhoette and Aquanaut are fairly fast boats. How does the speed of these two compare?
I have an Aquanaut now and like it. I always thought the Silhouette looked like a good boat (especially watching Nigel put it on edge and carve super tight turns on his videos).
Matt
Aquanaut - Silhouette Speed
The Silhouette is faster, at least across calm seas. The personalities of these two boats is very different. I am totally at ease in my Aquanaut, I have to be alert in a Silhouette.
Of course the Foster boat for my size person (6’, 165-170) is the Legend, which is the boat Nigel Foster himself most often paddles. I can relax in a Legend.
Sea Kayaker has not tested a Silhouette, but has reviewed the Legend. SK drag test lists the Legend at 4.9 pounds at 4.5 knots, 7 pounds at 5 knots and 12.5 pounds at 6 knots. The 'naut lists as 5.04 pounds at 4.5 knots, 7.42 pounds at 5 knots and 13.3 pounds at 6 knots.
Quick context; the P&H Quest lists at 14.76 pounds at 6 knots, the CD Andromeda at 15.21 pounds at 6 knots.
Cary Grant, considering kayaks
you may refer to my recent review of the Nordkapp, on this site. an old yet mysterious boat- many people speak of it, few have paddled one, fewer yet have any experience in a current model. a remarkable all around boat, far more balanced in it’s overall performance envelope than one might think and very fun.
OK, but who is paddling…
… either of these at 6 knots! I’ve never seen Barton in one. L Cruising 4.5 average over any decent distance would be good. 5 outstanding.
If you buy the drag figures:
At 4.5 knots - about a 3% effort difference.
At 5 & 6 knots - about a 6% effort difference.
For silhouette - I’d figure another 1-2% wider gap. Won’t matter much group touring - but 6% would matter racing, buying you as much as 1/4 nautical mile lead per hour. But that assumes matched paddlers and similar comfort/confidence in either hull, and no advantage from conditions - which is unlikely given the personality differences.
Doesn’t matter though right? I thought the only races Brit boat paddlers are interested in are tidal races. At least the 3-6% that actually paddle them.
Just was curious…
I actually do very little group touring. I paddle mostly by myself and enjoy pushing myself to paddle faster and harder. I like the feeling of going fast, I like to cover more water in a given workout, and I like to watch the speedometer on my GPS as it hits and stays at higher speeds.
Despite what some may think, there is an argument for non-racing paddlers to like fast boats.
Of course there are faster boats than Brit designs (no doubt about that) but the faster Brit boats can have good speed while maintaining all of those great handling characteristics that Brit boats tend to have.
Matt
Epic Endurance 18…
– Last Updated: May-20-06 8:28 PM EST –
The drag at 6 knots for an Epic Endurance 18 is listed at 11.27 pounds. This is the sea kayak one is most likely to have seen Barton paddling. It is also one of the fastest tested by Sea Kayaker.
In any case, I can feel the difference in drag among the boats I paddle. I often paddle at 4.5 to 5 knots with friends and at those speeds the greater glide of my Aquanaut (over my Romany) is obvious. I do sprint to 6 knots during outings and then the difference feels enormous.
The drag figures simply give some 'objectivity' to what one experiences. The scale of bow wakes does that as well.
(BTW Doing tidal races off Woods Hole MA in a few weeks. I'm using the Romany for its spriteliness and manueverability)
Two kinds of paddle shops
– Last Updated: May-20-06 11:04 AM EST –
As for as "touring" sea kayak stores in the Pacific Northwest (PNW), I see two kinds. One carries a general and representitve selection, including the Necky Chathams and WS Tempests, which are of course Brit-inspired, plus the non-Brit models those big-name suppliers offer, and then an odd assortment of other North American models, including some locally made boats.
http://www.nwoc.com/91505kayakprices.htm
The other specializes in certain brands, like this one that carries mostly Current Designs:
http://www.canoe-kayak.com/site/equipment.php?action=catagory&itemID=2
There are also kayak schools like Kayak Academy that also sell only Impex kayaks (plus the used trade-ins). And, of course, Impex has a Brit-inspired line of boats.
So, while we have the dominance of PNW kayak makers like NW Kayaks, Necky, Eddyline, and others in our area, there are still a lot of Brit-inspired designs and actual Brit. imports (Valley, P&H, NDK, ...). Plus we have a number of shops that focus on Brit. boats, or at least carry at least a few brands of them, like Alder Creek (Portland, OR) carrying both NDK and Valley (and also Impex by the way), while also carrying Current Designs (and their Derek Hutchinson and Nigel Foster Brit. boats), WS, Eddyline, and Necky boats.
Another example like this is Popeye's Marine center carrying Seaward, Nigel Foster, and Eddyline. Seaward has mostly PNW style boats, (whereas NF are definitely Brit. designed but Canadian built). So, like Cascade Canoe and Kayak Center, only a small number of brands are carried, but at least one or two of those are local big-name brands.
http://www.popeyesmarine.com/Kayakcenter.htm
I wonder of the Chathams, Tempests, and the like outsell the Lookshas, Elahos, Solstices, etc.
And what differences are there really? Do you have rubber hatches or compression hatches, a Greenland bow, or a dolphin/PNW bow ... or you have a day hatch, or not, or a clipped-off PNW stern. Even the Brit. boats seem to be offering bigger cockpits, larger volume, paddle-float rescue straps, etc. The PNW style boats are having lower back decks, sharper bows, and rubber day hatches. There is convergence from both sides.
So, does it come down to just styling? It probably makes more difference whether you use a rudder or not, and what kind of paddle you use, from the point of view of actually paddling, than some of these other stylistic differences.
So, yes, I would conclude that the popularity of Brit-styled boats is certainly a fashion, more than it is a cult, and is not going away anytime soon, considering the market and mindshare Brit-styled boats have, especially among instructors.
And of course, Brit-styled boats do look great, inheriting the traditional Greenland lines, so all the power to 'em I say. Just so long as we see the fashion for what it is and realize that all boats are great, and that whatever boat you paddle, you have fun, be safe, and paddle often!
It’s not just about speed
Both of my boats are designed by Brits and built in Canada. I have both a CD Gulfstream and a Nigel Foster Shadow.
Both of these boats handle rough water well and are extremely maneuverable. That is much more important to me than how fast I can go in a straight line.
One day while out in 20 - 30 knot winds, my Gulfstream became faster than a CD Extreme. The paddler in the Extreme usually was able to easily leave me in his wake. In the high winds and rough water, his boat was much slower than the GS and I had to keep waiting on him.
Use whatever boat fits your needs.
Similar
I too paddle alone mostly and like to keep moving, so I can relate. I rarely race - and just for fun when I do. No where close to being competetive.
Don’t tell the seal hunter wannabe rollaholics, but I’ve been known to stick the GPS in the decklines of my SOF sometimes. There’s a permanent mount for it on the QCC.
Different boats for different strokes.
– Last Updated: May-20-06 7:33 PM EST –
Mostly we choose boats whose performance is most to our liking in the variety of conditions we will paddle.
Once we ascertain the boat is capable in the conditions and uses we intend, it comes down to personality.
For hours of paddling I prefer a moderately fast boat that is well mannered, comfortable, and responsive as needed. For a couple of hours afterwork paddling or messing around, I like a boat that is very easy to move around - both in and out of the water. As a result I have the two boats I use regularly as each excels in one of these typical uses.
Mostly a boat should present one with no unpleasant surprises. Pleasant surprises are always welcome ;-)
Have heard that argument re the Explorer
I’ve heard a number of people say that the Explorer gets relatively faster in slop than some stiffer tracking boats because it handles moving over that texture with less fuss and can take corrections more easily on the fly. Having an LV myself, I can attest to its taking corrections on the fly for sure…
But whether it is faster than my tight bow Vela, a fairly fast accelerating boat within its group up to about 4 knots, I can’t say. If there’s enough going on I find that my own adrenaline is contributing greatly to my speed. :-}