heros
heroism is something folks perform when circumstances provide the opportunity. It’s possible to idolize someone as a hero but it’s not exactly a self-cultivated identity.
Seems to me you have some boundary or identity issues to explore.
Kayaking is good for that too.
Rolling in Greenland is hard. Cold hands
and then the darned thing won’t stay lit.
"It’s Bean Done."
A George Harrison line on The Simpsons.
This thread’s bean done. Sort of. Liv2 made the statement that the roll is a method of self-rescue and not a parlor trick. You gotta admit that a hand roll and that layin’-in-the-water thing sure look like parlor tricks.
My opinion is that rolling up from this way and that should be top priority and get lots of practice. The trick stuff should get proportionately less attention. The goal is to someday get good at both.
difference
could you explain to me the difference between a “fairly bombproof roll” and a “really bombproof roll”?
You’re look at it a bit oddly
"My opinion is that rolling up from this way and that should be top priority and get lots of practice. The trick stuff should get proportionately less attention. The goal is to someday get good at both."
Opinions are fine, but facts/knowledge/skills are better. Seeing Greenland rolling skills as separate from “real world” or “bombproof” rolling shows a lack of understanding of both.
The “trick” stuff as you call it, was developed to deal with real situations beyond what most recreational paddlers will ever face. All the different Greenland techniques TEACH you “rolling up from this way and that”.
To see these as such separate activities is a HUGE logical error. If you focus on your “bombproof” roll - you risk being a “one trick pony” and may get too dependent on your “go to” roll. If something is off - position, conditions, whatever - where are you at? If you’ve been working on many different rolls - you have that much more body/boat sense and that many more options. You’ll still use your preferred/strongest when it’s really needed - but with even better technique.
Working on some of the other less common rolls will not degrade your primary rolls, and certainly not your ability to come up in a variety of situations. Exactly the opposite.
If your “go to” roll needs work, by all means spend more time on that than new rolls. Otherwise, they all reinforce each other - and variety can be like a 2 for 1 use of time.
Silly thread. Amazing the misconceptions about this stuff. There may be some very small subset of people who work on Greenland rolls a lot, and may do little else on the water (I can’t think of any) - but that says nothing about the value of those skills for paddlers who do other sorts of paddling.
Well said. 
Saved me the bother.
Melissa
it’s a funny thing
this internet community concept. mostly i hold the idea in contempt. yet i’ve participated in this one for about 3 years. must be something to it. so as i lay down to sleep, i realize that my typed words, can have a negative effect on people, even if they are thousands of miles away, and i’ll never really know them (you). having a negative effect is not good. and while some things about the paddling community get my ire up, ultimately, all i really care about is that people enjoy themselves paddling. no my boats are not in the shop, but yes i’ve been grumpy. sorry if that attitude has had a negative effect. i’ll try and cheer up.
happy paddling, however you like to do it.
Don’t worry, be happy!
As human beings, I can’t imagine any of us not feeling grumpy at times, and I’m quite sure that all of us have said things in such moments that, upon reflection, we’d probably like to take back; even if bothering someone else’s sensibilities was never really our intent.
In any event, I think you’ll have to try harder than you have if you really want to bother most of us. If anything, I think some of us might have just been a bit puzzled by such comments, and felt the need to respond. Some interesting discussion has followed your original post, and that’s never a bad thing.
Melissa
Your grammar at it a bit oddly
You been drinkin’, Greyak?
I have a very good friend who took what I believe to be too much risk a while back. He went into some rough, high traffic water alone just to play around. His offside roll is very unreliable and at the time I think he had practiced a re-enter and roll one time. You know what he’d spent a lot of practice time doing? That’s right. Fooling around with a dumbass hand roll.
Basics first.
Bad Judgement …
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 6:30 AM EST –
nothing wrong with trying to learn/practice handrolls. But why in the heck would someone paddle into a high traffic area to play around with rolls...? I don't care how good s/he is. It's akin to riding a BMX bike into the middle of a highway to practice doing wheelies and twirls... Duh... Brain in park.
sing
PS. There is no such thing as a "dumbass hand roll" in my opinion. But, I do think your friend is a dumbass for trying to do handrolls where he did.
Limited thought processes…
– Last Updated: Jun-24-07 9:52 AM EST –
Sheesh - I swear there are too many engineers in this thread, or at least guys who are a whole lot younger than me. So much excessive black and white in the judgements.
Really - as Greyak indicated, there are lots of side benefits to the Greenland stuff. One of the things that I have to practice in waves in my long boat this season but I KNOW would be useful for me, since anxiety can be an issue, would be to be able to get partway up into the static brace then continue bon up. That'd give me a shot at getting air and collecting my thoughts in something like a tidal situation, where I may get unnerved by fighting pushy current, to continue on up. And I know I am hardly the only person out there with this kind of response.
Getting to the static brace in that case would be easier than going for the roll, and in my LV I can sit on one of them things forever including in moderate conditions. How many people has everyone seen that take a while to pull off a roll in these conditions and end up exiting the boat after one or two floundering and rushed attempts? Personally I'd be thrilled to see someone come up into a static brace then scull up for the rest rather than have to go rescue a swimmer. This kind of progression is much more easily encouraged in the Greenland progression than the traditional approach to rolling I see, which teaches people to be pretty much up or down when they are in a pinch. That sweet spot in the middle is greatly under-regarded and can be terribly valuable in open water, especially for people like myself who have tended to get flustered.
Yeah, if someone never gets out of the pool they'll not be handle conditions. And if someone goes out to practice a hand roll when they should be working on rough water skills it's bad judgement. But I don't see any way that Greenland skills can be blamed for bad judgement. They are just there - they are not some kind of thinking entity that can reach out and take over someone's mind, which is almost what some of this sounds like.
Yeah, how dare you speak your mind
like that! Next time, make sure you’re well rested before you touch the keyboard, will ya ;-). I got some value from the discussion.
Paul
The gray zone
I’m not real good on the Greenland braces but they can be a good addition to your toolkit. I have used a sculling brace to keep from having to roll several times.
A friend teaches exploring “the gray zone” somewhere and everywhere between right side up and upside down. This is not only good for boat control, but a great way to overcome the anxiety response.
I think it is one place where your boat and your body type really does make a difference, though.
I Concede
The static brace is more than a parlor trick. But the hand roll? A seal hunter might need that twice in his lifetime. A carpenter from Piedmont North Carolina will NEVER need a hand roll.
This thread is about:
“what troubles me is how much time and energy these folks put into learning multiple rolling skills, and mastering none, especially when it counts.”
All I’m saying is that I saw this happen with my own two eyes.
A post is often only as good as the…
… resulting discussion. Yours has given people a chance to counter some misconceptions - brings up a good line of thought about priorities - and reminds us we all paddle differently.
To that - grumpy or not - I say well done!
“dumbass hand roll”?
Sounds to me like the “hand roll” part had nothing to do with it.
The hand roll bombproofs your standard
Think about it. Someone who can hand roll - even inconsistently - is going to have it pretty easy with a paddle.
If you only practice with a paddle - same paddle - one or two ways - you may get good, but may also be ingraining some bad habits, making assumptions, getting complacent, etc.
Doing MUCH harder rolls forces better technique. This can then be applied to your go to rolls.
Are you just playing Devil’s mentally challenged brother’s advocate here - or are you really not seeing the progression and crossover benefits?
I can only do a few rolls, no hand roll - but have tried enough to know I could get A LOT better (plus they’re fun enough to want to get more of them). I would not know that if I’d settled for a basic sweep roll or C2C (and don’t even talk to me about one sided rolling - that I don’t understand beyond very early learning), no mater how reliable I felt I’d made it.
Hold on there!!
Stereotyping engineers is very simplistic! Lawyers are fair game!, but be nice to the engineers… I find most of them to be far from black and white, but at the same time non-tolerant of BS that is clearly incorrect. That’s perhaps why they get labelled…they take the fun out of commonly held notions that are simply wrong…at least on this planet!
My take on this site is that it’s mostly great folk and posts can be mis-read. People that you assume you’d dislike you’d probably have a ball hanging out with. We’re all continuing to learn.
Prof in grad school once said something I’ve never forgotten. “It’s that which disturbs us the most that has the most to teach us.” Harvey Hornstein.
Yes - but many are a bit linear.
Logical to a fault.
You may have to back them up to get them to consider another path - or even let them wear out one avenue of exploration before you try to get them on another. Forget rambling discussions that jump all over the place.
Not all engineers fit this stereotype either of course, but even the multitaskers will recognize what I’m getting at - as it’s a stength when setting out to solve a SPECIFIC engineering problem (trouble being they tend to approach non-engineering problems the same way). When the problem is a less defined - it can make for a lot of dead ends.
that’s not logical:)