Thermoformed vs Rotomolded

Advice
#1

Hi



Looking for some advice on buying a kayak



There seems to be two main differences in material, either rotomolded or thermoformed.



We intend to use on a lake and slow river.



Whilst we have hired out a rotomolded kayak and know that it will take a few knocks from rocks etc, I am concerned how well a thermoformed kayak would stand against rocks or stones.



Can anyone offer any advice and guidance as to the best material or option to go for.



The two main kayaks we are looking at are the

Ocean Kayak Frenzy and the Bic Sports Bilbao



Thanks

#2

Re
Thermoformed plastics under whatever branding seem to somewhat occupy an area between traditional PE boats and composite boats. In as much as they are touted for their higher rigidity and lighter weight than a PE boat, while generally costing less than a composite boat.



As far as durability, they are tough, but like trad PE boats cannot be as easily repaired as a composite boat can.



Either a PE or thermoformed boat will generally take ‘normal’ abuse in stride. A thermoformed boat will generally weigh less and cost more than its PE counterpart.



But IMHO don’t start with material. Start with finding the proper BOAT, then decide on material. So demo boats, determine which one best meets your needs as a paddler, and THEN look into construction options.



Until you know what you want out of a boat you’re going to have no real instinct as to what is of value to you. I.e. a crappy paddling boat that is lighter, or a boat that weighs more but paddles better? Is saving 15lbs of weight worth however many hundred dollars in price difference? Etc. Gotta paddle em before you can make those calls, cause they are individual choices that different ppl have different answers to.

#3

TH is more expensive but better
IMHO the PE is heavy and not as stylish looking. The TH is lighter, more expensive and more attractive. Here’s a link to how to maintain and repair TH

http://eddyline.com/Eddyline_carerepair.aspx

#4

Rotomolded will out live you,
maintenance may be a water hose. Mine doesn’t get a chance to collect dust. Storage on the side is all that it needs.

#5

Search the Archives

– Last Updated: Aug-12-07 11:56 PM EST –

This question as been asked many times. I like my thermoformed boat, Hurricane Tracer, light and nice looking.

#6

I’m for Thermoform
Own a CD 14’ Kestrel in TCS. I have taken this boat over light shoals and a few unintended oyster beds in gulf side bays. It has held up better than either my husband’s or my expectations.



I agree that it is best to decide on a boat before deciding on material. But if your chosen kraft is available in a Thermoform and the additional cost is not prohibitive, go for it.



After the first scratch, it won’t matter much. My thermoform boat seems to be less likely to the deep scratches that can often happen with rotomolded plastic. Its pretty tough stuff.



Anyway, good luck in your search. There are a lot of wonderful boats out there and the decision is nnot an easy one.



Deb

#7

PE/thermoform/composite
I think PE would be the toughest. Certain composite boats have a layup sufficient to approach the durability of a PE boat IMO. I don’t think I could say the same for a TF boat.



Composite (fiberglass) kayaks are easiest to repair, generally.

#8

I’ve been exploring different kayak options and found that rotomolded kayaks, like the ones from Rotoplast, are really impressive. They’re known for their long-lasting durability, which means they’re a great investment for a lifetime of use. Plus, they come in various designs and colors, allowing for personalization to suit your style. Definitely worth considering if you’re in the market for a kayak.

#9

I and my wife own 8 kayaks as of today. My last one is an Eddyline Fathom which is thermo-formed. At 16.5 feet long and 22" across the beam, it’s 50 pounds. I own a Perception Sea Lion Shadow which it also 16.5 feet long and it’s 24" wide across the beam. It’s 64 pounds. The Perception is mounted with a rudder and the Eddyline comes with a skeg. At the top spot for speed and for ease of rolling is my Necky Chatham17. It’s 17’ 3" long and only 21 inches wide with a low rear deck and it weighs 62 pounds.
In the last few years I have also bought and sold many other kayaks to friends and people in the Rocky Mountain (mostly here in Wyoming) I am trying to get a groups of ocean kayakers started up in an area that’s 1200 miles from an ocean, and believe it or not, I’m doing pretty well in the efforts. Of the other 25 kayaks bought and re-sold, I have paddled most of them, and a few were fiberglass and one was glass and carbon fiber. Kayaks from 12 feet to 18.5 feet long in several types and designs. Recreational to White Waters to sit on tops to cross-waters to touring kayaks.

What have I learned to allow me to give a good answer to this question? Not really anything of value that would help.

System said above the best advice so far: I could give the same advice which is to focus on the type and design of a kayak first and then think about material it’s made from. “Mission statement” is the most important. Give yourself an HONEST description of what you will use the kayak for. Also keep in mind that the easier a kayak is to use on calm water the faster you learn to use it, and if the ride is as important or more important then the destination, it’s probable you’ll look for something that handles faster and easier in rougher waters as paddling trips in flat water become more and more “routine”.
If you focus more on where you are going and the kayak is more a vessel to move you there, or if (for another example) fishing is more important then the paddling itself, a wider, shorter kayak is going to do what you want better then a touring kayak. On the other end is the White Water world. Kayakers that do White Water are ALL about the trips, and the core of their fun is the paddling with everything else being of lesser importance.

So make sure you think hard about what you want to do.
2 ways to think of it are (A) How to get somewhere and (B) Simply getting somewhere.

If the ‘how’ is more fun then the where, look hard at touring and possible WW kayaks.

If the where is fist in importance look had at Fishing kayaks, recreational kayaks and shorter wider hull designs that are easy to use AND can hold a lot of gear too.

And in doing so, be sure you understand that if you become immersed into the activity you ARE going to want to do more and more. Not just more often and more time out, but more challenging paddling trips too.

Of all the kayaks I have now and all that I have bough and resold, the only one I own that I have come to like so much I do not even consider selling it and replacing it with “something better” is my Chatham17 and as of this writing it’s also the heaviest kayak I own.
Yet it’s the one that I have learned the most of my skills in. To be 100% honest, when I first got my Chatham I thought I’d overstepped my ability and was wondering if I’d ever be able to learn to use it well. But I did learn, and now I feel pretty comfortable in every other kayak I have tried. (no surf skis yet however)

I was rather surprised when I got my Eddyline Fathom that the Chatham still remains the fastest one in the group despite it being 12 pounds heavier. In all the kayaks I have ever bought only 1 was faster then my Chatham17, and it was 1 inch narrower and 15 inches longer. My Eddyline Fathom is a joy to use and is quicker to go from stop to full speed, but my idea that it was going to outperform the Chatham proved to be wrong.
So I now focus on design, and what a kayak is made of is in 2nd place for me. The Chatham is not as easy to hold on a very steep edge as the Eddyline and so I’d expect a new paddler would like the Fathom sooner then the Chatham17 because making fast turns come more easily in it. The Fathom will dump you if you are not using good techniques to turn it tight. But once I learned how to use it, the Chatham17 will turn as tight as my Fathom. The Fathom is more forgiving and has a flatter learning curve, but once I have learned how to edge hard over, so water if well over the edge of the combing and spray skirt at 3:00 or 9:00, the lighter, hard chained Eddyline didn’t out-turn my Fathom. It’s just as good, but I cannot say it’s any better.

The fathom IS easier to load, being lighter. It IS quicker to accelerate. But it is not a rugged and tough as the Fathom and not as fast. I have yet to have my Fathom in waves and chop as large as I have had my Chatham17 in, so as of now I can’t say which handles wind driven waves better. I have been in chop about 4 feet deep (Trough to Crest and with every one being a white cap) and there were very confused waters in my Chatham17 three times now and so far the worst chop I have had the Fathom in was about 28 inches. So I can’t say with any degree or knowledge which one is “better” for rough waters. Both seem very good,
But if I were to take a hard hit against a rock I am sure the Chatham is going to be harder to punch a hole in then the Fathom. That’s a test I never want to do however. Rotomolded is the toughest and least likely to get punctured, but the most difficult of all types to repair. Glass is easiest. Thermoformed is fairly easy and from what I’ve read Kevlar and carbon are doable at home shops- but not as easy as glass or Thermoformed.

Knowing that this post is 16 years old I figure maybe there are readers here that have not seen it in the past, so I thought I’d add my 2 cents

OK Ramble over…

#10

Voyons donc! Que c’est ça? C’est laitte en mautadit ces affaires-là.

[Challenge for google translator. ;-))

#11

Respectfully, I don’t agree, or not in all cases. If I start by specifying my ideal type and design of kayak, I will conclude that it’s not available in any rotomolded (too heavy), composite (too expensive), or thermoformed (cockpits too small) model. So my next step is to identify my #1 priority in a kayak. For me that’s WEIGHT. So I just eliminated rotomolded. Then I list my next priority: PRICE. That eliminates composite, carbon, and kevlar. Now I’m down to one nonnegotiable material, thermoformed. At that point my choices are limited to what’s available on the market for hull shape, cockpit size, etc. For me personally there is no perfect kayak. I list my top 10 priorities and buy the kayak that hits most of them and make peace with the design faults.

Most people choose thermoformed plastic first for its weight. For us, the material is the controlling factor above everything else. The attractive designs and finish of rotomolded are an added bonus.

I think your main point is that USE is the main controlling factor—where, when, and how do you intend to use a kayak? I don’t disagree with that, but if I’m unwilling to wrestle with a 55-lb+ kayak, then weight is still the main consideration—I simply can’t kayak in places and conditions that aren’t safe for a lighter thermoformed kayak. I think there are a lot of people who feel this way about weight—older people, women, smaller people, people who have to load their kayak on their vehicle by themselves.

#12

Other types of kayaks that were not mentioned are:
Stitch and Glue,
Strip built
and skin on frame (the original type)

Like so many things in the world the lighter a kayak gets the less strong and resilient it is.

Of the 3 types I list here all can be made light weight with the skin on frame being the lightest. The down side and problem with a super light skin on frame is longevity. Add to that fact the expense in either your time to make it and keep it maintained or the dollars you’ll need to pay someone to make it for you. The lighter you make the frame the more likely it is to break down and need major repair. The lighter you make the skin the less life you can expect from it.

But the point that a Rotomolded kayak can be too heavy for some people is valid. It’s not a judgement call at all. it’s simply a fact. Not everyone can be an NFL football team member or a Rock Star, or even a garbage man. Some activities requite a degree of power and strength below which that activity is not practical or even sometimes possible. So the “Answer” like most things in life is going to be (A) to compromise or (B) to give up on the idea.

A “heavy” skin on frame kayak will weight about 36 pounds and last quite a long time. A mid range SOF kayak will weigh maybe 28-32 pounds. A super light one can be as low as 22 pounds. The less life you get from the new craft the more money you will spend over the lifetime of it’s use. New skins and new materials to repair breaks and cracks of the frame itself.
Skin on Frame kayaks have no bulkheads or hatch covers. Loading and unloading cargo always goes through the cockpit . Float bags are a necessary addition to be safe.

Stitch and Glue and Strip Built can be very strong depending on how strong you make them but every addition of “strength” is an addition to both weight and cost. Very well made Strip built and Stitch and Glue kayaks probably will last 30-40 years with a modest degree of care and maintenance. Both can be made with bulkheads, adding safety but also weight and cost.
The best examples I have seen cost as much or more then the highest-end composite made kayaks, and are getting close to the same weight.

The reason to make such kayaks is #1 to have something you made yourself and #2 to make a kayak that has design features you can’t get from a factory kayak. If you are building a kayak because you love to do it and don’t count your time as a monetary investment, building one from raw materials is the best option for light, and strong and with the custom features you want.

But the perfect kayak is like the perfect legal system. It’s doesn’t exist outside of Heaven.

In Physics you are always making trades. A perfect kayak would be very inexpensive , super light, as strong as the armor belting on a battleship, go really fast with minimal effort, not weather cock at all, carry 1000 pounds, turn like a snow saucer and be 100% stable in ALL water conditions.
The chances of us getting that are nearly as remote as getting all politicians to tell the truth at all times.

In fact, it’s EXACTLY the same likelihood.

#13

Another Lazarus thread raised from the dead.

I own three composites and two are almost 50 years old. While nowhere near as indestructible as rotomolds (we called them tupperware boats when they came out and we were in awe) they are not exactly delicate.

There are 95 lb rotomolds out there and at the end of the day you have to get that sucker back on the car. The specs on the Rotoplast link somehow leave out… you guessed it… the weight. For small whitewater play boats, rotomold is the way to go hands down. For everything else buy the weight you can afford.

#14

Back here in the real world, my perfect kayak would:

  1. Weigh 45 lbs or less
  2. Cost under $1500 (It’s not hard to meet this by buying used and at the end of the season.)
  3. Be strong enough to withstand slow impacts
  4. Be very stable in waves and rough water in the hands of an intermediate paddler
  5. Have good glide
  6. Be 12.5 to 13.5 feet long and about 24" wide
  7. Have a cockpit that’s about 16" wide and 34" long
  8. Have a depth of 13"
  9. Have good maneuverability and acceptable weathercocking
  10. Carry me plus 50-75 lbs of gear
  11. Have two hatches that can hold at least 140 liters
  12. Have deck and perimeter lines

These are all good compromises on your list, szhin. Such a kayak would do a lot of things pretty well and some are considered seaworthy. I don’t mention the seat because they’re all awful, IMHO.

I know of only two kayaks that meet most of those criteria. I own both of them. One meets 10 out of 12 of my criteria. The other meets 11 criteria. The missing criteria really bug me on both kayaks—cockpit too short, bottom material not quite strong enough.

The most expensive thermoformed brand, Eddyline, meets only half of my criteria due to design flaws. Apparently it’s very expensive to create new thermoform molds, so once a company commits to a certain philosophy about the hull shape, they’re stuck with the molds until they acknowledge the design problems or that the shape isn’t stable for its expected paddler type (meaning, the majority of people who buy 12.5 to 14’ kayaks aren’t expert paddlers and they need a stable hull to be safe). I respect Hurricane for revamping their designs about 10 years ago and producing stable, attractive kayaks with a ton of hatch space. That must have cost them a lot, but the result was worth it and improved Hurricane’s reputation a lot. Delta has always had a very stable shape and good material, and over the years they improved their glide a lot—some of the early models were tank-like and slow. But they haven’t kept up with the changing size of paddlers, which I find baffling.

There is some ego involved in these design problems—an unwillingness to let go of designers’ outdated personal biases and be open to changing consumer needs (talking only about sit-ins here). These companies have also changed hands over the years and had changes in management. Current company owners could be stuck with the preferences of previous or original owners that the brand’s image was built on. It would be hard for Eddyline to escape their “low windage” philosophy at this point, but they really should, and Delta needs to realize that Canadians are catching up to Americans in girth—69% of Americans and 65% of Canadians are overweight.

Sorry, what was the topic? Oh yeah, thermoformed versus rotomolded kayaks and what is a perfect kayak?

#15

Pretty sure it was resurrected by a drive-by spammer. We should not have fallen for it.

2 Likes
#16

^ ^ ^
Not necessarily so.
The thread was what…14 years old?
I for one was not kayaking 14 years ago, and has no knowledge of this forum’s existence.
I’d bet a lot of other members have not read every single post on this forum for the last 14 year too.

#17

I think Waterbird was referring to the thread’s resurrection 2 days ago, after a 14 year lapse in activity.

1 Like
#18

Yes, I believe that’s true. So Waterbird may not be wrong.

BUT… some of us have not been here for 14 years, so a valid (albeit old) thread should be resurrected from time to time.

#19

Yup, it was an It. A new way to “market” their company product.