Thoughts On First Vehicle for Little Deuce

My daughter and number one partner in crime is staring down the barrel of her sweet sixteen. Her mom and I are divorced but work very well together (far better than we did pre-divorce :)) and have agreed to get her a vehicle. She’s confident I’ll make the best decision and has deferred to my judgment regarding what kind. I will of course not choose anything she’s uncomfortable with. The criteria: $10k max, reasonably safe and not super easy to roll, AWD or 4WD, easy rack installation, tough enough for forest service and river roads, under 100k miles and no more than two owners. I’m leaning toward RAV4 or Subaru Forester and would love opinions on those, but I also welcome input on alternatives that meet the aforementioned criteria.

RAV4: I’ve read there’s a piston issue in ~08 models that causes super excessive oil consumption, as in a quart every 1k miles. Holy schnikeys! I also found that Toyota finally stepped up to the plate and offered the necessary repair at no owner cost but haven’t dug into the deets. Anything else I should know good or bad?

Forester: The dreaded, infamous head gasket issue was supposedly resolved in 2005 but I’ve read that may or may not be true. Thoughts on that? Anything else good or bad? I really like Subarus a lot and think the Forester has a lot to offer for someone like my daughter.

I realize every brand has endemic issues and a used rig is very much a roll of the dice. Just don’t want to wade into a ****storm and subject us all three to a bunch of unnecessary stress.

My '08 Forester is at 211,000 miles and still going. Had the head gasket done at 145,000 miles, on my third ignition pack (do not use aftermarket - stick with Subaru), last major repair was gasket/solenoid oil leak (about $850 to replace everything). Replaced roof rack with Thule after I bent the factory rack somewhere or other driving some boat somewhere. Would I do it again? Hmm. Still getting 26 mpg, but believe the head gasket should have been a factory recall. Noisy, but still fun to drive. I say let her test drive one, and see if she likes it.

Well, wouldn’t a Little Deuce Coupe be the obvious choice?

@pblanc said:
Well, wouldn’t a Little Deuce Coupe be the obvious choice?

You don’t know what I got!

We owned a 2004 Honda Element from '04-'11, 7 years. We regret every day that we traded it in. Ours was “Real time 4WD,” which meant, unlike AWD, it would convert to 4WD with any “Slippage” that it sensed. We live at the end of a bad gravel road on a farm. Never got the Element stuck, as I recall, driving on a lot of snow, ice, mud, and gravel bars.

The Element was not as “Economical” as most Honda’s. With the 4WD model, we probably got 22mpg most of the time. Driving flat land, 50mph you could stretch it to 24-25mpg. In extreme winds out west with boats on the roof we once got about 16-17mpg. One of my only complaints was that the engine sometimes felt a bit under powered?

The seats, floorboards, and rear were rubberized and very easy to clean. I thought that seat material was PERFECT? Here it is, 10 years later and I STILL haven’t seen another vehicle with a comparable fabric and can’t figure out why? it was comfortable, easy to clean, and difficult to stain. Perfect interior for dogs, paddling, and throwing crap in at the farm. My next door neighbor once sold a miniature donkey to an older couple who picked it up in their Honda Element. I would venture to say, that was not the only instance someone pressed the Element into a livestock hauler?

As for sleeping in the Element, we probably spent 100 nights or more in it over the 7 years we had it? It was a bit tight for two, perfect for one. If you’re much taller than me (6’1") it may be a little tight, but I was always comfortable. You could either sleep with rear seats down and put a sleeping pad on them (or not) for a little more room, or with seats up and out of the way. I’ll show a few pics of both.

After we traded our Element in at a local dealer, they sold it to a mom & pop car lot about a year or two later. We knew it was ours, as they left two of the Thule “Feet” on it and we knew every little dent and scratch. For a year or so it sat on that lot and we would go by and look at it and I’d try to talk my wife into letting me buy it back. It finally went away, and now she too wishes we had bought it back!

Oh, BTW, as for the “Rack spread.” it was a little smaller than my liking, and couldn’t really be moved further back due to the moon roof. That said, I had 17 and 18’ canoes on the roof with a Thule rack and NEVER had an issue until we had an accident. One of the welds tore after my wife hit a tree with our canoe rack and tore the front rack off. That was one of the reasons we thought about selling it. We bought one of those Yakima bars through foam contraptions that Oak Orchard sells. We could have just bolted through the roof, probably with better results?

Oh, and the moon roof was difficult to mess with, and we both disliked it. Unfortunately, it came with the 4WD version and so we didn’t have a choice. That said, I would be happy with the front wheel drive model too, as the traction just in FWD was great most of the time.

Had I been given the reigns on “Tweaking” the design I have no doubt they’d still be on the market; I would have designed the “Perfect” paddling vehicle with a few minor changes. An economical diesel engine, a foot or so more length, more rack spread, and a bit of a softening of the “Box” shape would have made for the perfect paddler, hiker, hunter, dog owner, etc vehicle! Here are a few pics for illustration:




Two years ago I talked about the head gasket issue with a guy who used to be the manager of a Subaru dealer service center. He said confidently that Subaru had NOT done anything about the problem. I got the head gaskets changed for a friend. It was hell. You had to get the serial number of the replacement parts and figure out how old they were because they didn’t remove the defective parts from stock. Maybe the problem has now been solved, I don’t know.

My suggestion for a small adventure car is the Scion xA. It doesn’t meet several of your criteria but if I were 16 years old I would be glad to have it. Lots of storage with the back seat folded down.

There is mixed anecdotal evidence in this forum thread about the head gasket problem: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2776292

Other interesting takes on the question, but no definitive answer:
https://www.quora.com/Has-Subaru-done-anything-about-their-infamous-head-gasket-failure
http://www.thedrive.com/the-hammer/9423/the-quality-question-why-has-subarus-reliability-gone-downhill

I think you would need to google each individual year of the Forester and read the consumer and professional reviews carefully, focusing on cars with over 80,000 miles.

My concern about this problem is that you could have to replace the head gaskets TWICE over the life of the car if they fail every 80,000 miles.

WB, thank you very much. That’s exactly what I was looking for. The Googling will continue until morale improves.

@Deuce said:
WB, thank you very much. That’s exactly what I was looking for. The Googling will continue until morale improves.

HAHA! How about just going to a Subaru dealership and asking the service manager a direct question about whether they’ve solved the head gasket problem? First arm yourself with an understanding of exactly what the problem is/was and the cause. Then press him for specifics on exactly what has been changed.

“Under 100,000 miles” could take you back 6 years, to 2012. Some people claim the problem ended in 2010 or 2011 but give no evidence for that and I see several forum posts from 2010 Forester owners with leaking gaskets (https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-t35765_ds571090). I would say that 2012 is close enough to that era to be a concern. If it has under 80,000 miles you might not know if there’s a surprise in store for you in the near future.

***One strategy would be to buy a Forester that just had the head gaskets done, so you know you can probably get 80,000 miles out of it (6 years).

Here’s a forum log of Subaru head gasket failures: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/88-head-gasket-issues/18583-hg-failure-log-no-discussion-log-only-46.html. For the posts in 2015-2017, I believe the most recent failures are on 2011 or 12 models. That makes sense because in 2017 those vehicles were 5 or 6 years old, meaning they had around 75-90,000 miles. That explains why there are no complaints about failures in 2013-17 models.

Isn’t a Rav4 a lot of car for a 16-year-old? What exactly is she going to do with this vehicle? I’m picturing offroad adventures in the Amazon. When I was 16 my dad lent me the money for a 3-speed Raleigh bike, which cost $35. I was elated.

The Scion xA is a miniature version of the Honda Element with Toyota reliability all the way. Very cheap to maintain.

I like my current Rav4, that is after several years of a pre-2010 Subaru Outback which did have the head gasket thing happen at about 100,000 miles. On the flip side, that was before they went to timing chains so the belt was due around then as well. So all at once, the labor was simiala for both jobs.

But the Rav4 of a model year with the spare tire inside, which for reliability is probably what you want, is also a pretty tall car when you have to load a boat on it. I make it work but I have a long time working with tools to make it so.

Two SUV’s n this group which have excellent reliability ratings, not so highly priced and offer a more user-friendly profile for car-topping boats are the Hyundai Sant Fe and the Mazda CX5. Depending on what service stations or dealerships are within easy reach, these two may be worth a look.

Honda Fit?

I recently helped my dad pick a vehicle. I used Consumer Reports as a reference and noticed they really, really liked the Toyota Four Runner. It was way up there as far as frequency of repair is concerned. Hardly ever in the shop.

You’d likely have to forget about that ‘under 100k miles’ to keep it under 10 grand.

Interesting, Waterbird. I consider the Forester and RAV4 to be small SUVs (as do the industry and market), but I guess it’s a matter of perspective. She’d love to have a 4Runner as suggested by Rex, or even especially a Tacoma (never understood the fascination with those since I paid less for my Tundra that gets about the same mileage and delivers much more torque, payload and passenger space but I digress) and I’d love to buy her one, but I can’t justify the expense and she’ll be glad I didn’t when she has to pay for her own fuel. To answer your specific question regarding what exactly she’ll be doing in whatever vehicle I do buy her; no Amazon adventures on tap, but like her dad she’ll spend a lot of time on forest service roads, river roads and gravel bars that would destroy something like a Fit, Scion or even Element or CRV in short order. That’s the price of entry to the WW and lots of the other good stuff in our neck of the woods. She’ll also sleep in it and cram it full of paddling and camping gear, and she’s making noise about going to school where she’ll be well served by something that’s AWD or 4WD with decent ground clearance. Hence the criteria. Since our respective first conveyances are apparently relevant, mine was a 68 Chevy pickup. It was Pop’s, then my brother’s, then mine. We dubbed it The Red Flame, but most of my friends averred The Red Bomb was a more appropriate moniker. They were not wrong.

Celia, what year model is your RAV4? I think a Santa Fe would work but have yet to see one that meets the criteria. Will continue to consider them. Hadn’t considered the CX5. Thanks!

@Deuce
My current Rav4 is actually a 2018. Last fall, when I went in with my 2014 for its almost-60000 mile work, they offered me a decent deal on a new one with the self-driving safety package that was the only reason I was willing to move out of the 2014, Plus a couple of doodads that I had in my old Subie which were practical for my needs but I had lost with going to the mid-package 2014 Toyota.

Both of the Ravs are decidedly taller than my pre-2010 Subie was, and an inch or so taller than most of their competition in a small SUV. It took me some work to make them as friendly for kayak loading as my previous cars had been. But I was ready for a vacation from Subaru for a bit.

Both are taller than the older Rav4’s with the spare tire mounted on the back door, though I can’t say how much.

I have friends who have a Santa Fe and will happily get another one when this dies, which looks like a long way out. It has been trouble free, hauls their little sailboat around as needed as well as being the car for sailing weekends with bags of gear involved. It gets used. Not a whit of an issue with it in their experience.

Their Hyundai does not have roof rails, so maybe you have to find a middle level package to get that. But they exist, maybe they are flush-mounted like those on the Hondas but there are towers for that.

<<she’ll spend a lot of time on forest service roads, river roads and gravel bars that would destroy something like a Fit, Scion or even Element or CRV in short order. That’s the price of entry to the WW and lots of the other good stuff in our neck of the woods. She’ll also sleep in it and cram it full of paddling and camping gear, and she’s making noise about going to school where she’ll be well served by something that’s AWD or 4WD with decent ground clearance. Hence the criteria. >>

Might be worth looking around to see in you can find a Jeep Liberty with lowish miles & decent condition. Quality varied & milage isn’t the best but mine went over 225,000 before the end.

@Deuce said:like her dad she’ll spend a lot of time on forest service roads, river roads and gravel bars that would destroy something like a Fit, Scion or even Element or CRV in short order. That’s the price of entry to the WW and lots of the other good stuff in our neck of the woods. She’ll also sleep in it and cram it full of paddling and camping gear, and she’s making noise about going to school where she’ll be well served by something that’s AWD or 4WD with decent ground clearance. Hence the criteria. Since our respective first conveyances are apparently relevant, mine was a 68 Chevy pickup. It was Pop’s, then my brother’s, then mine. We dubbed it The Red Flame, but most of my friends averred The Red Bomb was a more appropriate moniker. They were not wrong.

Luke, did you miss my post on the Element? We live at the end of a dead end gravel road that some P.netters referred to as a “Goat path.” We had a cabin way back in the hills between Flippin & Yellville, so I know bad Ozark roads. The Element went all over the Ozarks, river landings etc. like a champ. Great to sleep in and reliable as heck. As you know, I drive 90 miles to work so I go through the vehicles. We’ve had a '96 RAV4, 2000 Dodge Durango, and 2003 Ford Escape before the Element and ALL needed to be pulled out at one time or another by the tractor. Not the Element, never, ever came close.



Terry, I read your post and added Elements to the list, but then I read up and found a few too many complaints. The pattern seems to be great power train but frequent expensive ancillary issues. Repeatedly failing window regulators, fires due to shoddy electrical work and inoperable ignitions forcing tows of otherwise perfectly functional vehicles were a few that jumped out. Clearly you didn’t have any of those issues, but I came across enough to frighten me out of buying her one. They also don’t have as much ground clearance as I’d like. I do like them though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/a-nissan-xterra-is-the-most-underrated-cheap-4x4-right-1793346709/amp

In the past 6 years I have owned a 2003 Santa Fe, a 2002 Outback and my current 2015 Mazda CX5. So I’ll throw in my two cents.

First, the worst: I will NEVER buy a Subaru again after my experience with the Outback (though I loved the 1978 Subaru DL wagon I had decades ago). The Outback was the worst lemon I have ever had and repairs are ridiculously costly – every couple of months I had to drop $2000 or more into it though it only had 60,000 miles on it when I bought it (and it looked pristine). I spent more on major repairs for that one car than the other 12 I have owned in my life combined! Plus the wind noise was horrible, the ride was harsh and the driving position was cramped. I often do 8 to 10 hour solo highway trips and I always felt beat up and left for dead after driving the Outback on them. They are grossly overpriced for what you get.

Now the better: The Santa Fe was a great car. More comfortable, smoother driving especially on the highway, more reliable, nicely designed, spacious inside. What minor repairs it needed were easy and reasonable – in fact I elected to buy one in the first place because two mechanics I knew raved about how solidly built they were and how easy to work on. It felt much more solid than the Subarus and RAV4’s that several of my friends drive, even more substantial than one friend’s VW Passat (we often drive each others cars when we carpool on paddling, hiking and ski trips.) The ONLY reason I sold it was because it became evident after a couple of years that the neglect of the previous owner meant it was starting to prematurely rust in the frame and underbody. I sold it to buy the low-miles Outback but immediately missed the Santa Fe’s comfort and agility, as well as the higher driving position. I always prefer a stick shift (which all 3 of these cars were) and the transmission on the Hyundai was vastly superior to the Subaru’s EVEN after I had the Outback’s entire transmission rebuilt with a new clutch. After 18 months (and nearly $10,000 in repairs) with the Outback I decided to look for another Hyundai and this time to start fresh with a NEW car.

The Hyundai dealer was really backed up the Saturday that I stopped in. After waiting nearly 2 hours and still not being able to find a sales agent to give me a test drive I got disgusted and wandered across the road to the new Mazda dealer – a friend had mentioned that the CX-5 wagon had gotten rave reviews from the auto mags. They had a manual in stock – it has the same 6-speed stick as the sporty little Miatas. I found I like it as much as the Santa Fe and it was cheaper – just under $20,000 new. I have been VERY happy with the car which, besides being comfortable and a pleasure to drive, especially long distance, gets 35 mpg on the highway and 27 to 31 around town. My only criticism of it is that the center seats don’t fold down completely flat – that was the sole thing about the Outback that I liked. I can still haul plenty of stuff in it and have even slept in the back on a couple of trips - I don’t mind having my head slightly raised. The manual transmission model at the time I got mine only came in FWD, not 4WD but with the stick I find I don’t need 4WD – most people don’t if they know how to drive in snow and have the proper tires. I live in one of the hilliest cities in the country (Pittsburgh) with lots of snow and ice, also regularly haul kayaks and camping gear up and down dirt roads and it has never failed to get me where I need to go.

Ground clearance for both the Santa Fe and CX-5 are the same (and about a half inch less than the Outback or Forester, which is neglible.)

I realize you are looking for used – at least in my area the used Hyundais and Mazdas sell for significantly less than Subarus of similar vintage and mileage (Subies seem to have an irrational cult following – also people either love theirs and drive them to death or they get a lemon and polish it up and unload it – caveat emptor). I think the Koreans make some darn good cars (though I am not too fond of Kia’s which seem tinny to me.)

Honestly, if I was getting my own child their first car I would do as my parents did and insist they get a stick and learn to drive with a clutch. A stick requires being attentive to your driving, is not easy to do when one is inebriated and has an additional advantage in the modern world: you cannot use a cell phone and/or text when you need both hands to drive the car. Also, most of your kid’s friends (including potential boyfriends) will be unable to drive the car – one less parental worry. (And the right kind of boy will be impressed that she can handle a stick.)