@BrianSnat said:
I think one of the most common mistakes is buying a rec kayak or short, stable canoe and expecting to go fast.
We have two “John’s” that paddle with club and both paddle 10 ft kayaks. They have good technique and keep up with the sea kayaks. Good engine on that muscle kayak.
@Overstreet said:
@BrianSnat said:
I think one of the most common mistakes is buying a rec kayak or short, stable canoe and expecting to go fast.We have two “John’s” that paddle with club and both paddle 10 ft kayaks. They have good technique and keep up with the sea kayaks. Good engine on that muscle kayak.
Sea kayaks are dead in the water then.
Tips for speed? Since everyone has a different boat (boats) use different paddles of various blade sizes and styles as well as the length of the paddle and your height, weight, arm length…so many variables. What’s worked for me is using a GPS to monitor my speed and trying different paddle lengths and paddling styles. I monitor the GPS to see my speed in those various permutations. I have 3 wing paddles, each 2 piece and adjustable length. All are different in blade size and overall length. I use each one for different boats. The shortest one with small blades for the surf ski, medium size one for my sea kayak and the third one for my CLC 17 which is the widest of those 3 boats. In my sea kayak, I can reach 6.8 mph for short bursts, cruise all day at 5 mph. Surf ski on flat water can do short bursts of 7.4 mph and cruise at 5.5 mph. I’m 65, but in good physical shape.
Let the GPS teach you.
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Overstreet said:
@BrianSnat said:
I think one of the most common mistakes is buying a rec kayak or short, stable canoe and expecting to go fast.We have two “John’s” that paddle with club and both paddle 10 ft kayaks. They have good technique and keep up with the sea kayaks. Good engine on that muscle kayak.
Sea kayaks are dead in the water then.
No, we averaged 3 mph on ten miles with stops on the Suwannee river central section. . It’s not normal. But there are always exceptions.
I agree with Paddledog. Top speed of a 10’ kayak will be under 5 mph (about 4.9 to be more precise). That’s with maximum effort. Trying harder won’t make it go any faster, and certainly not when using the kind of effort that can be applied during distance paddling. For distance paddling, I’d be shocked, good technique or not, if these guys in 10-foot boats can actually maintain a speed of 4.5 mph, and yet 4.5 mph in a sea kayak is virtually effortless, and 5.5 mph is an easy all-day pace for a decent paddler. What about all-day cruising at 5.5 mph in a 10-foot boat? Ha!! That’s faster than a 10-foot boat can even go. You can’t finesse your way around the laws of physics.
For what it’s worth, our local paddling club usually averages about 3 mph on quiet rivers, including rest stops, and I can’t describe the pace as anything but “very relaxed”, meaning that yes, sea kayaks would be virtually dead in the water at that speed.
I didn’t believe it either. But I saw it and Garmin measured it.
@CapeFear
Enjoyed reading your thoughtful comments. Since the water’s frozen here, revisiting the Lawler video is a way to stay connected with paddling, although it’s frustrating as there’s no way to practice any of it.
Maybe if I keep watching it regularly over the winter, I’ll have total recall when I pick up a paddle next spring?
Good points on increasing cadence. This summer I wasn’t the same whirling windmill of past, having clean catches and increased speed, but the rotation felt off. I think that may be remedied with the foam footrest I installed, which makes it easier to “stand up.”
Thought this quote from Lawler’s business site, Ultimate Kayaks, was funny.
Though Ivan is an ex athlete, he is, in his old age, seeing the beauty of kayaking for fun.
@Overstreet said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Overstreet said:
@BrianSnat said:
I think one of the most common mistakes is buying a rec kayak or short, stable canoe and expecting to go fast.We have two “John’s” that paddle with club and both paddle 10 ft kayaks. They have good technique and keep up with the sea kayaks. Good engine on that muscle kayak.
Sea kayaks are dead in the water then.
No, we averaged 3 mph on ten miles with stops on the Suwannee river central section. . It’s not normal. But there are always exceptions.
When comparing let’s not use apples and bananas.
“No, we averaged 3 mph on ten miles with stops on the Suwannee river central section. . It’s not normal. But there are always exceptions.”
Exceptions to what? You don’t even specify. With absolutely no info about how long or frequent the stops were or what the speed of the current was, there isn’t anything here on which to judge actual paddling speed. All we know is that the speed relative to the ground when paddling was somewhere faster than 3 mph. What was that speed? 3.5 mph? 4.0 mph? That’s what would be typical on the paddling-club trips I do, and those speeds are nothing special at all, and taking into account the current are even less so. What’s the speed when accounting for both current speed and rest stops? The answer in this case is that “nobody knows”, unless you are withholding something. I’d make a sizable bet that the through-the-water speed never exceeded 4.5 mph. Exceeding hull speed (4.9 mph) in such a short boat just takes way too much power for me to believe it ever happens for more than a moment here and there, and even getting close to hull speed (~4.5 mph) for any length of time would require enormous exertion. And again, such a speed as that is only in the low end of the natural range of easy cruising speeds for a sea kayak. Apply enough power in a sea kayak to get up near hull speed and you’ll be going around 6 mph or more (see Andy’s post above for evidence that this is possible).
Club paddles ( 4) I have been on don’t average 3 mph usually 2.3 - 2.5. all sea kayaks. No stops on land included. People are all great otherwise doubt I would go. Someone is fiddling with one thing or another drags the group down. This is in bays and ocean. No clue how fast I would have to be going to make a beach stop and stay at 3 mph on a 10-15 mile trip. Me alone most times in my single it’s 4+ not killing myself. Even the tandem it’s 3.5 to 3.75 when alone. With myself or with my partner we just keep a steady pace. No need to wait for others or decide which way everyone is heading. Probably why most of my padding is alone. Even in these group paddles the last leg I shoot ahead. In the beginning I stay in the rear enjoying the sight of the boats paddling. If you’re starting with say 4.5 mph and stopping average speed drops like a stone.
Just for the fun of it, the next time you guys are on a ski, or fast kayak and the water is kicking up about a one foot chop, do your best sprint and see if the results are what happened for me.
The conditions were as I described and I was trying to get out of the way of an approaching very large and fast moving yacht. Not that I was in any jeopardy of actually being run over, but the yacht seemed to be adjusting course in order to pass in front of me. At a certain point, I decided that the yacht was still far enough away that I could get across in front of it in plenty of time, but just to be sure, I decided to kick it up to my version of a sprint. I couldn’t have been more surprised as the boat actually surged forward at a speed that heretofore would only be accomplished while surfing. My theory is that the chop combined with the increased speed was enough to lift the boat, reduce the total amount of drag and what a rush.
The sprint only lasted a very few seconds, but it put me completely clear of the yacht and I just had to try it again and I did. Same result; the boat seemed to rise to the tops of the small waves and sort of skip across the tops, but it did take an effort that I was afraid to keep fiddling with in fear that I would pay a big price by straining something. For me, if there’s going to be a strain, it usually shows up a couple of days later. I got lucky and nothing showed up.
I had to wonder what that looked like to the skipper of the yacht.
The exception is that short boats, ie 10 ft, usually are “drifters” they make a one or two above the current. They often have trouble making 10 miles.
As for averages on sea kayak runs yes and no. It often depends upon conditions. Group runs with mixed boats, sea kayaks, SOTs and canoes are always slower. Group trip averages go down real fast with stops. For example here is a trip of mostly sea kayaks surveying storm damage repairs. Note the top speed and the moving and “stopped” trip averages. This was on the ICW generally slack tide.
I usually paddle solo. On one of my jaunts I did 24 miles in 4 hours and 20 minutes with 3 pit stops.
@Andy_Szymczak said:
I usually paddle solo. On one of my jaunts I did 24 miles in 4 hours and 20 minutes with 3 pit stops.
So with three pit stops of just under 7 minutes each you did 6 mph. Fast any current or wind helping?
@magooch said:
Just for the fun of it, the next time you guys are on a ski, or fast kayak and the water is kicking up about a one foot chop, do your best sprint and see if the results are what happened for me.The conditions were as I described and I was trying to get out of the way of an approaching very large and fast moving yacht. Not that I was in any jeopardy of actually being run over, but the yacht seemed to be adjusting course in order to pass in front of me. At a certain point, I decided that the yacht was still far enough away that I could get across in front of it in plenty of time, but just to be sure, I decided to kick it up to my version of a sprint. I couldn’t have been more surprised as the boat actually surged forward at a speed that heretofore would only be accomplished while surfing. My theory is that the chop combined with the increased speed was enough to lift the boat, reduce the total amount of drag and what a rush.
The sprint only lasted a very few seconds, but it put me completely clear of the yacht and I just had to try it again and I did. Same result; the boat seemed to rise to the tops of the small waves and sort of skip across the tops, but it did take an effort that I was afraid to keep fiddling with in fear that I would pay a big price by straining something. For me, if there’s going to be a strain, it usually shows up a couple of days later. I got lucky and nothing showed up.
I had to wonder what that looked like to the skipper of the yacht.
How did you measure your speed? Power boats can usually be faster with chop not sure on a sea kayak.
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Andy_Szymczak said:
I usually paddle solo. On one of my jaunts I did 24 miles in 4 hours and 20 minutes with 3 pit stops.So with three pit stops of just under 7 minutes each you did 6 mph. Fast any current or wind helping?
Raystown lake in PA. Wind was relatively mild. Was in my 18 foot Artisan Millennium and using a wing paddle. That was 4 years ago at the age of 61. That year I paddled just over 1000 miles. Was in good physical condition. My style of paddling is always fast, I am not a good group paddler. Put me in a boat, and I’ll paddle fast, can’t help myself.
@Andy_Szymczak said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Andy_Szymczak said:
I usually paddle solo. On one of my jaunts I did 24 miles in 4 hours and 20 minutes with 3 pit stops.So with three pit stops of just under 7 minutes each you did 6 mph. Fast any current or wind helping?
Raystown lake in PA. Wind was relatively mild. Was in my 18 foot Artisan Millennium and using a wing paddle. That was 4 years ago at the age of 61. That year I paddled just over 1000 miles. Was in good physical condition. My style of paddling is always fast, I am not a good group paddler. Put me in a boat, and I’ll paddle fast, can’t help myself.
@Andy_Szymczak said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
@Andy_Szymczak said:
I usually paddle solo. On one of my jaunts I did 24 miles in 4 hours and 20 minutes with 3 pit stops.So with three pit stops of just under 7 minutes each you did 6 mph. Fast any current or wind helping?
Raystown lake in PA. Wind was relatively mild. Was in my 18 foot Artisan Millennium and using a wing paddle. That was 4 years ago at the age of 61. That year I paddled just over 1000 miles. Was in good physical condition. My style of paddling is always fast, I am not a good group paddler. Put me in a boat, and I’ll paddle fast, can’t help myself.
To bad you’re not near me. I am the same way. Had one friend here I met on the water and we went at it hammer’s and tong running hard . Sadly he moved to FL. Lots of people here 65 LOL it seems.
@magooch said:
Just for the fun of it, the next time you guys are on a ski, or fast kayak and the water is kicking up about a one foot chop, do your best sprint and see if the results are what happened for me.
I don’t know about the sprint part, but when the wind is enough to kick up about one foot chop it sure slows me down, unless following. It takes maybe 10 kts of wind to cause that one foot chop. But there are always little currents so even with my gps it is hard to know by how much. Also, I don’t sprint but amble along between 3.5 and 4.0 kts. That wind/chop slows me for any combo of my boats and paddles.
@PaddleDog52 said:
@magooch said:
Just for the fun of it, the next time you guys are on a ski, or fast kayak and the water is kicking up about a one foot chop, do your best sprint and see if the results are what happened for me.The conditions were as I described and I was trying to get out of the way of an approaching very large and fast moving yacht. Not that I was in any jeopardy of actually being run over, but the yacht seemed to be adjusting course in order to pass in front of me. At a certain point, I decided that the yacht was still far enough away that I could get across in front of it in plenty of time, but just to be sure, I decided to kick it up to my version of a sprint. I couldn’t have been more surprised as the boat actually surged forward at a speed that heretofore would only be accomplished while surfing. My theory is that the chop combined with the increased speed was enough to lift the boat, reduce the total amount of drag and what a rush.
The sprint only lasted a very few seconds, but it put me completely clear of the yacht and I just had to try it again and I did. Same result; the boat seemed to rise to the tops of the small waves and sort of skip across the tops, but it did take an effort that I was afraid to keep fiddling with in fear that I would pay a big price by straining something. For me, if there’s going to be a strain, it usually shows up a couple of days later. I got lucky and nothing showed up.
I had to wonder what that looked like to the skipper of the yacht.
How did you measure your speed? Power boats can usually be faster with chop not sure on a sea kayak.
I didn’t measure my speed. All I can tell you is that the boat has a theoretical hull speed of 7.5 mph. The boat felt like it was planing, or something very close. What I do know is that it was beyond 7.5 mph. I do a lot of surfing and this experience felt every bit as fast as wave-skip surfing.
As I remember it, there wasn’t much wind and if there was, I was not paddling into the wind, but most likely at 90 degrees to it. The chop was most likely from a combination of boat traffic and maybe a little wind, but mostly non-directional from wave rebound, etc.
