do you think it is a geographic
psychology thing, that in the east, and the midwest we are caught up with the paddle rather than paddling? Maybe it is an inherint geographic/geologic jealousy I possess about the saltwater paddling you have out there that gets me asking these questions anyway? I do love the midwest and the great lakes, but I’m always scheming/daydreaming about doing saltwater trips, and doing surf trips, going somewhere where there are tidal races, and rock gardens to paddle. Although Superior has rock gardens and caves to spare.
Well…
– Last Updated: Dec-06-04 12:37 PM EST –
"Why is it so hard to take your often repeated "live and let live" approach to those that *do* benefit from working from within a structured program? I certainly agree with you that no "school of learning" can take anyone all the way to true mastery but for many people structured learning it is a quick and efficient method of skills acquisition up to and including an advanced level of skill."
I think I do give credit to structured programs for bringing folks along, and will often suggest newbies take lessons. I recognize that I have a different style of learning and coaching for what I do. Yet I actually manage to coexist with those who are have different approaches in loose federations, at least to point where I am not barred from their doors to take training or even invited to give training. Since I don't certify, folks are actually less afraid of losing students.
"The point has always been about practical application of skills acquired, it's not the structured side of the argument that works against this. The argument isn't greenland vs euro it's structured learning vs unstructured learning."
Yes. I agree with this.
"The greenland side says that codification/ certification is at the core of the problem. The euro side says that codification/certification isn't perfect but is more effective than nothing."
The "Greenland side" is not monolithic, nor the Euro side of that matter. However, dogmatists exist on both sides and the disagreement goes beyond the teaching of skills to even the "value" or "efficacy" of the actual equipment. The martial arts equivilent is to argue whether a spear or a sword is more effective. My take is that whichever kills you (or saves your life) is more effective. Furthermore, everything is compounded/exacerbated by the issue of liability and whether certification addresses it and should be mandated or not.
"Do people really have a choice? If we are to talk about these things then we need some common frame of reference from which to base our discussion."
Yes. We do have a choice. Let's talk about the context and how a skill and/or piece of equipment apply. You don't have to speak in the "codified" language of BCU assessments 1-5, or use "Greenlandic" terms. Just describe it in the terms that the receiver can understand.
"How else would you know the difference between people that just "talk the talk" and people with real-world experience and practical skills?"
You can't really, although you can get hints by what folks say. Ultimately, you know by face to face interaction in the watery realm. This is the same with martial arts talk on 'net. You don't know who is just talking a talk, or able to walk the talk. But, if one really cares to find out, one can face to face. Generally, I 've been fortunate to be able differentiate and made many good connections, traveling around this country to meet such folks. But this takes experience and critical thinking to go with it.
sing
You Come, We Paddle…
there’ll be no discussions about greenlandic vs euro. etc. We paddle, we surf, we run a river, we play, we have fun. Simple.
sing
you forgot…
we get certified!
ouch, just joking! 
no seriously, I like that! who cares, just GO paddle and do it with FNES.
Fun
Necessary
Effecient
Safe
steve
cheers
>>cheers, (the classic now-non-demoninational but formerly british-style paddling salute)
I thought it was a BAR in Boston!
steve
It’s funny to you because you still…
…don’t understand my first post was replying ONLY to one specific point in john913’s post. A side dialog, as is wont to happen in group discussions.
If you weren’t such a control freak and overly rank conscious person (sorry I’m not skilled enough to reply to YOUR superior threads) - you’d have gone right by it (unless the side issue interested you too) - and probably would not be concerned with euro/GP dogma so much (but your thread is still interesting when looked at big picture and open minded - as your respondents are).
But you’re still young, time to mellow with age. Salt is good for that too…
look at this way
– Last Updated: Dec-06-04 2:29 PM EST –
if you posted a topic about people who have qcc's and what their experience has been with customer service for warranty repair, and wanted to specifically know what their opinion was, would it seem slightly incongruous for someone who didn't have a qcc to comment on this specific event?
It isn't out of a need to find rank, or being a control freak, it's that you seem to want to volunteer your opinion whether or not you have any experience with the subject matter or not. Just like when you were trying to volunteer rolling advice before you knew how to roll.
It's downright disingenuous to do this.
If you think that's out of whack then that's fine.
You Forgot… NS.
No suing…
Read the Jalama surf event and rescue. With wrong freakin’ people, there be a law suit brewing already even if there were no grounds for one.
sing
“anti-Euro”?
I think you assume far too much. Many of the posters who you would likely classify as “anti-Euro” use many paddles of different types.
Having a preference for something does not automatically create a polarized stance against something else. You read more into the posts than is there. Perhaps you take such a narrow and defensive view to hide behind that misconception instead of addressing those people’s points directly?
“…Euro-side there is nothing to hide behind”?
That just a derisive and unnecessary comment. Do you really think people avoid certification programs because they can’t handle a euro paddle? Because they are afraid to develop more skills? How highly you must think of yourself and how lowly the rest!
Personally, I like your do it all approach, and can relate to that. You have done much! I respect the skills you have developed and hope to follow along many of the same lines. However, as heart felt, direct, and sincere as your post clearly was - it actually moves me further from wanting to seek any certifications because of the sentiments I addressed above.
FYI - I am still firmly “on the fence” on this issue. Interested and undecided. Like many others though, I see certification as completely separate from training/lessons. When I see posts like yours and Keith’s that seem to have trouble drawing that line, I am turned off.
I think you are reinforcing a split in the paddling community that need not exist, and are dead wrong in your impressions of those not so impressed or motivated by certifications. I think the focus on and interest in skills is the main thing that IS shared by all who participate in these threads. No one is avoiding that, or doubting the value of training (with whatever stick).
I do understand…
… and my intent was not to hijack your thread.
I saw an interesting tangent (and apparently not just to me) and pursued it. If I had taken it to another thread it would have been out of context.
I do not think my post diminished your intent - or interfered with your question (until you took it as such and made a big deal about it).
When it goes full circle it may even add something to what you were looking for. It was not 100% on topic (again - it was a side discussion), but was not a slam or wholly unrelated either.
More replies (even off topic) keep your thread near the top and get you more chances for on topic replies. Not such a bad thing.
I have rarely posted a topic that was not sidelined a bit. Some were uncalled for negative things, others were actually interesting (or if not to me, maybe to others) or had good info.
“more effective than nothing”…
– Last Updated: Dec-06-04 3:46 PM EST –
... comment seems to assume if you're not in a "program" your not doing anything, or that leaning outside some prescribed structure has no value.
I'm sure no one here is that dogmatic, but it does point out the divisive mentality that can underly the issues and turn people off.
I'm trying to look at the matching comment on the "greenland side says codification/ certification is at the core of the problem", and find the balance, but I really don't know if I can understand or agree with it. First off there is no "Greenland side". You'll find a variety of opinions among GP users. Even if there was consensus, is certification seen as the core of the problem, or as the problem itself? Something unneeded and potentially disruptive that creates the "problem". As something that has the potential to turn something wonderfully flexible into something packed for consumption in a one size fits many format and loses something in the process?
In a way, the whole thing is silly. Sing's right about it being inevitable. At least it doesn't prevent one following other paths when it's in place. I may blind some to them though, or have them question each others' skills based on paperwork. Paperwork that doesn't mean the same thing as it was granted by different people teaching in different places.
That may indeed be "more effective than nothing", but whether that's true rests wholly upon your individual definition of "effective".
BCU/ACA GP Training
We have taken training with both BCU and ACA as well as instruction from QUSA members and have learned things form even what we considered to be marginal instructors. In the past two years the BCU has become very open to GP and some of the best paddlers we have met are BCU coaches with one having been to the Greenland Competition and building SOF boats. You can become a good paddler on your own but instruction saves a lot of time.
We paddle Euro/Gp/Wing and have taken classes and certs using all the above.
do you think it’s a turn off to any
formal instruction to have to know how to use both types of paddles?
This would apply to those of us who primarily use a GP, but don’t do surf or white water?
I personally wish I was better with a euro paddle,
I’m always a little rusty now-a-days, but i can usually get back in the swing of things in an hour or so. I really enjoy surfing with one.
But I find it to be an advantage that strict euro paddlers don’t have, being able to use the stick.
isn’t true though
that at the Qajaq Usa affiliated instructors/events they teach rolling or paddling based on the competitions. At least with Mark Molina he started almost every lesson with a comment about how they judge the rolling skills based on points and being able to start and finish the roll in the same position etc. This isn’t me trying to say gotcha to the qajaqusa folks, but I am trying to point out that there is already some informal codification of right vs wrong with their instruction based on the kanaat qatuffiat competitions. They are already partially following a curriculum for the list of maneuvers on the website. Personally I think it’s really fun and helpful, but it is codified too. Not as rigidly as the aca/bcu.
who was the BCU instructor
who had been to the competitions
Thanks for posting your thoughts
" Getting back to your original question; the BCU training/assessment with the modern paddle has provided me with some benefit even now that I am back to the GP. The benefit for me is that after the training my boat control improved greatly. I’ve learned to explore the edges of my kayak. This has really opened up a whole new world to me and the edges (leaning and edging) don’t change depending on what paddle you use. But, without the BCU training and assessment I would have not discovered this new zone. Of course, I’ve known for a long time that I could edge and lean to turn but the training as provided by Leon and Shawna really helped me to explore this at a much more intense level. I may well do some BCU 4 training in the future, with GP or not, just to move my paddling skills up a notch. I’m sure, again, that the skills would translate to better boat control and more comfort in bigger seas."
John,
I’m glad to hear that you found your training to be of value beyond the limited scope of it’s original presentation. This is how I believe things should be. Training should offer practical skills irrespective of the venue, equipment or chosen paddling style of it’s original presenters. Leone and Shawna are great people and great instructors. Their goal is to empower paddlers of all persuasions to learn, grow and safely enjoy paddling. Leone and Shawna are highly respected within the BCU and elsewhere and provide a perfect example of that to which instructors of all styles might aspire.
{As an aside, Leone and I were playing (competitively?) with greenland-style rolling maneuvers using our euro sticks a couple of months ago in some “textured” waters. It’s amazing how little difference the choice of paddle makes when the other skills are available.}
BNystrom’s points about a Nigel Foster class echo a similar sentiment. Specifically that the skills should transcend the styles (even though the demonstration may not) and have value to anyone what wants to develop as a paddler regardless of their tribal affiliation. I assisted in the course Brian wrote about and found that skills were adapted and acquired by participants using various equipment (and of varied skill levels), some even working the skills from both a euro (as presented) and greenland point of view by exchanging paddles. Overall the effectiveness of that course serves as a testament to the instructor as well as the teaching methods.
Based on comments by both BNystrom and Sing, I’ll start keeping a GP on my deck even when I’m teaching a structured-learning course in order to better service those clients that have greenland-style specific questions or needs.
“The Greenland style braces are so different from a modern paddle brace that it seems that the BCU assessor would have to be knowledgeable in both paddling styles to asses a Greenland style Paddler. Add to that, the chest scull and balance brace, etc. There is a whole repertoire of moves (not that I can do them) that the BCU won’t even touch.”
As you pointed out a BCU assessor would be hard pressed to assess greenland style techniques that they might not be familiar with, but more importantly the skills you mentioned are not part of the standard as it exists. Adding these maneuvers to the standard might be a precursor to such a TQU which is something (apparently) none of us want. As Sing suggested, it (a traditional qajaq certification) is coming sooner or later from someone, that is just the way we westerners think and do things. It’s sad, but inevitable.
cheers to all,
jed
Note to Sing:
Based on your comments elsewhere I’ve tried to remove any euro-centric bias from my response. I have, in the past, responded to what I perceived as an anti-euro bias with pro-tolerance / style-neutral language . But even then, I defended the structured learning aspect of the euro schools because that has been my (positive) experience. I see now that possibly my defense may have been perceived as fueling the fire that another has started. I’ll work harder to blur the distinction on which others seem to depend. There is much to learn from each other but the learning and sharing are hindered by these tribal distinctions. I encourage us all to move away from petty euro vs greenland language and deal with the real issues of learning and teaching others.
The ACA Traditional Kayaking course
Becky and Mark Molina are ACA Instructors who have both been to Greenland. Mark twice I think. Don’t think they are also BCU affiliated, but don’t know.
Their website does list “The ACA Traditional Kayaking course”
http://www.canoeandkayak.cc/traditional.htm
Haven’t taken any classes with them, but may at some point. I met them last night (mentioned in my first post - but was leaving out names on purpose there). Super nice.
They’re organizing an event in January I will try to make. What little info I know is on QajaqUSA Commercial and Events forum.
I would describe that more as…
… passing along information picked up while in Greenland (and that includes a lot more than just the competition and what the top paddlers are doing).
Info specific to the competition is shared for obvious reasons, but that’s not the same as having instruction and certification standards for “Greenland paddling”.
Saying the competition rules somehow provide a structure that permeates all of Greenland style paddling is like saying the Olympic judges, coaches and paddlers control all western style paddling. The influence from Olympic paddling on the sport is easy to see, but does not control training or certification programs.
I Am Ecclectic…
as you know by now. I willing to use what works for what I am trying to do. I don’t use a wing because I don’t race. I have never been an endurance athlete and it doesn’t attract me. And I don’t have the time to train as much as an endurance athlete needs to be competitive. Otherwise I might consider it.
I am a believer that the more one knows, the better that one generally is. If for nothing than one’s own edification. I believe structured programs offer ways for folks to get lessons on whatever. BTW, the Greenland folks at Walden Pond also have a structured way for folks to progress. The difference is that they are not trying to “codify” or “certify” what they are doing, nor do I see them asking strict adherence to their way. That is a difference from the BCU model.
I want to emphasize that I am not against structured learning. Heck, even I have a loose structure (at least some objectives related to the venues I participate in). The two things, I keep saying about this structured learning, over and over again, is that it doesn’t have to be related to the issue of certificaton and that it is possible to have learning structures that are effective outside of the existing codified ones. I think if folks want, they can go back and search my posts on the subject on P-Net and find that this is pretty reflective of my position. If you go do a search at Qajaq/USA, you’ll find some my posts that are equally reflective of a certain amount of frustration with the “mullahs” who seem as doctrinal in their assertions and perspectives.
The other thing to recognize is that competition can bring some codification as well. Some of this has to do with nothing but setting standards for competition. It may have something or nothing at all to do with real life exigencies. So for example, lets say my X roll sucks from the perspective of text book form, be it Greenlandic or BCU. I won’t win a comp or get certified for it. Too bad if either or both of these things were important to me. But, what if I tell you that I haven’t wet exited a boat in either surf of white water in at least three years because of a blown roll. I have been sucked out of the boat. I have had my paddle stripped. But, I have not blown a roll and wet exited because of physical or mental failure to roll. So, my roll may not be text book but it’s a reliable one. Ditto with sculling for support. I can do that on both sides with either Greenland or Euro paddle. Can I say it’s text book in either style. No. But I can tell you that I can scull down, scull up or scull in position. I can do this with a white water boat, a surf boat, a SOF or (dare I say it) my imitation Brit boat from Impex.
Look, I believe in training. I also believe in playing/doing. I just don’t see that this has be learned/done in one set way or the other. I certainly don’t, for me, see the certification fitting into the mix. I admit to getting frustrated when I think folks are mixing it all together. Because, I do see some posts that amounts to folks saying, unintentional or otherwise, that if one isn’t interested in certification than one isn’t learning or training.
As far as speed of learning goes, absolutely no doubt that one can learned faster from someone who knows what they are teaching. For me, though, I am not in a rush to learn as fast as possible. I am not in any rush to get “anywhere.” I also don’t want to make the time (or spend the money), given other things in my life, to go take courses in paddling. It’s just not my priority. My priority is playing and hopefully playing at the safe side of the edge. So, I am careful about the what, where and when I take something on 'cause I don’t lay responsibility for anything going wrong on anyone but myself. I’m probably slower in progression because of that.
sing
If not “anti-euro” then what?
“I think you assume far too much. Many of the posters who you would likely classify as “anti-Euro” use many paddles of different types.”
Greg,
I call them as I see them. The term “anti-euro” is used to describe those that, in my opinion, express distain for the euro school / structured learning environments without personal experience of same, those that are quick to jump on the anti-establishment wagon. I don’t believe I mentioned anyone by name, would you discount my opinion unless I attach names? Rightly or wrongly, my opinion is no less valid than yours. I’ll try to respond to your points with a bit more kindness than you sometimes show others in your posts.
“Having a preference for something does not automatically create a polarized stance against something else. You read more into the posts than is there. Perhaps you take such a narrow and defensive view to hide behind that misconception instead of addressing those people’s points directly?”
I never said that preferences automatically create polarization. Perhaps I do take a narrow view of things, although my experience with paddling would seem to indicate otherwise. Nonetheless, I do tend to view things more distinctly (more black and white) that other people. It’s a personality shortcoming that I strive to keep in check but I’m not always successful in those efforts. One thing that I do try avoid is overtly aggressive language like you used in the second sentence quote above. I have not attacked you personally, yet you feel the need to be aggressive with me. Did I inadvertently attack something about which you feel compelled to defend?
It is my belief that tribal affiliations and the desire to defend those affiliations and/or equipment choices does lead to polarization. If people aren’t made to feel that they need to defend their choices that there will be less polarization. Your QCC-bias runs contrary to my own preferences and yet I’ve never responded to those posts. Partially because I see equipment choices as such a deeply personal matter. Maybe if we start to think of learning-styles and paddling-styles similarly we’ll make others feel less of a need to be defensive?
I believe we are all biased on way or another, if not by our training or certification than by our need to belong to one tribe or another. I readily admit my biases and seek to avoid letting that creep into my posts going forward. But at the end of the day we are who we are and we must each live within our own skins.
“…Euro-side there is nothing to hide behind”?
“That just a derisive and unnecessary comment. Do you really think people avoid certification programs because they can’t handle a euro paddle? Because they are afraid to develop more skills? How highly you must think of yourself and how lowly the rest!”
That I know people that struggled with structured learning systems (and have sought refuge in unstructured settings) does not mean that I think myself superior to them. The sentence you quoted was about me not you and not anyone else. I found that for me the structured learning approach (in my case BCU training and assessments) left nothing to chance and forced me to deal with my weaknesses relative to various skills. I participate in instructor training through various groups so that I become a better paddler not so I can claim superiority.
Why would my personal quest for mastery of something as benign as paddling offend you? Is it possible that you read too much into that short phrase and it struck a nerve? Such was not my intent, I believe that I was responding to someone else’s post. Would you have read my post differently if I had used the term “BCU” rather than" Euro-side"? When I have something to say to you specifically I will post to you specifically as I have here. But in a general sense, I try to avoid confronting everyone with whom I disagree since they outnumber me several-fold.
I have been training to learn to teach effectively for many years and in that time have seen lots of people looking for something to hide behind and people looking to hide for various reasons. Did you think that my comments was a characterization of the greenland-camp? (it was not) My comment referred to people that do not flourish in a structured-learning environment. In my experience I’ve seen more of these in a euro setting than I have in my limited greenland structured-learning settings but that isn’t to say that it’s a characterization of one group or another one way or another. It was a simple comment, certainly not worth of such a strongly worded response.
“Personally, I like your do it all approach, and can relate to that. You have done much! I respect the skills you have developed and hope to follow along many of the same lines. However, as heart felt, direct, and sincere as your post clearly was - it actually moves me further from wanting to seek any certifications because of the sentiments I addressed above.”
Greg, I’m not here to promote certification, euro training or greenland training. I’m here sharing my love of paddling with others and to express my positive experience with varied training opportunities. Sure, I’ve taken my shots at the anti-euros when I think they have stepped over the line, just as I’ve taken anti-greenlanders to task when I feel that they have been inaccurate or biased. And I will try to be more style-neutral with my language in the future since style-neutrality is at the core of my paddling philosophy.
“FYI - I am still firmly “on the fence” on this issue. Interested and undecided. Like many others though, I see certification as completely separate from training/lessons. When I see posts like yours and Keith’s that seem to have trouble drawing that line, I am turned off.”
That’s a reasonable sentiment from someone outside the structured learning system. My thoughts are expressed as a result of those very systems and for me personally the certifications were the “external validation” in which others like you have little faith but which I needed to confirm the lack of weaknesses in my own skill set. For me, and for some people, the assessment is the point. It’s not a way to stratify paddlers by skill level and hence claim superiority but rather a token external validation that some one does meet the standard, or at least met the standard on that particular day. I’m not here to convert you or change your thinking on the value of certification. But neither do I want your preconceptions to limit my choices or the choices of other people that think and learn as I do.
You are free to do what you want. You may ultimately chose a path that I feel is not the most efficient. Such is your right, just as it is my right to hold fast to my opinions. I’m sure neither you nor I will lose any sleep regardless of the path you chose.
“I think you are reinforcing a split in the paddling community that need not exist, and are dead wrong in your impressions of those not so impressed or motivated by certifications. I think the focus on and interest in skills is the main thing that IS shared by all who participate in these threads. No one is avoiding that, or doubting the value of training (with whatever stick).”
Below, quoted from another post, I address this very opinion. I apologize if/that my actions, language or posts have had the reverse effect of my intent. I am just one paddler and am in fact a product of the very systems of which so many are so vocally oppose. I seek to provide an alternate view for people like me that come to paddling later in life and seek the fastest, most efficient methods for skills acquisition and whom respond favorably (or need for whatever reason) external validation. I don’t claim that my way is the best way or the only way. But on the other hand I will continue to offer my opinion when and where I think that people might be served by them.
Thanks for your comments. I hope my response hasn’t poured even more fuel on the fire. I think that you are right, clearly my post had the effect of exacerbating the rift between you and me although it’s a bit lofty, I think, to credit that little post with exacerbating the split in the paddling community. I’ve stated in this post that I’ll work to be style-neutral in my posts going forward. Will you return in kind?
cheers,
jed
quoted from my response to John’s post:
Note to Sing:
Based on your comments elsewhere I’ve tried to remove any euro-centric bias from my response. I have, in the past, responded to what I perceived as an anti-euro bias with pro-tolerance / style-neutral language . But even then, I defended the structured learning aspect of the euro schools because that has been my (positive) experience. I see now that possibly my defense may have been perceived as fueling the fire that another has started. I’ll work harder to blur the distinction on which others seem to depend. There is much to learn from each other but the learning and sharing are hindered by these tribal distinctions. I encourage us all to move away from petty euro vs greenland language and deal with the real issues of learning and teaching others.