... we'll have little in the way of discussion beyond bland agreements and platitudes.
In spirit and appreciation of paddling we do not differ. An acceptance of many paths we share as well. You made statements, I replied - no harm no foul. You find what you seek. Why seek enemies?
As for somehow being verbal neutral - that may be shooting too high and make it hard to communicate. There ARE differences in style, gear and attitudes. Let's keep it that way.
The one problem I seem to give people is I mix specific (to the person I reply to) and general thoughts relating to the topic. I do this as I am not pulling you aside to talk privately as you seem to do, but rather am replying to everyone using your post as talking points. Like we're all gathered after long paddle and shooting the breeze - together. Sorry if that gets confusing. B/W minded folks seem to have more trouble with this and assume everything is personal (and you're in good company).
You raised many questions and issues. I'll just hit those that popped out as I read.
1. I'm not Greg.
2. I, like you, only offer my opinions and ideas. Straight up as they come to me. Neither kind/nor unkind. Just put out there to do with as you will.
3. As far as my general issues with certification go, "euro" really has nothing to do with it.
4. QCC bias? Well, I do have a Q700 I am very happy with. However, I do not like any of their other models. I may never own another QCC, but this one should serve me well for many years. Mine has a skeg and foam bulkhead type foot padding (no pegs). I have added lines fore and aft for GPs. Several other tweaks. In all, hardly a prototypical QCC - and certainly not whatever twisted narrow stereotype of one you harbor. I also own a VCP Pintail, a Tsunami X-1 Rocket, and a Findeisen UX Surf Ski. I have 3 GPs (4th on the way), 3 euros, and a wing. Current itch is to build a SOF.
So tell me again, what's my bias?
The fact that you assumed some sort of fanatic tribal loyalty in the first place, based on threads you say you stay out of, says everything better than I possibly can.
5. Tribes? Good and bad things to them. I largely reject tribes, cliques, and clubs. Always have. Not because they lack value, but because they tend to distort the view toward non-members and can become isolated to the point of becoming mutual admiration societies. When I am in any such structure it is usually at the periphery. I prefer to wander tribe-less among all tribes. Welcome by most, learning from all.
One last opinion: It is far easier to hide within structures, than without. It is also much easier to assume a defensive posture from within a structure. That is not to say structures are good or bad, but how does one hide without something to hide behind, or be defensive with nothing to defend? Your suggestion that the outsiders are hiding and defensive sounds more to me like a little psychological thing known as "projection".
Clearly you prefer to make this personal So I’ll leave you with your thoughts free to believe whatever you wish of me and my beliefs.
It’s always interesting to see who, when offered an olive branch, seeks to strike a blow in response.
It’s gets easier to undestand with each of your responses, how you so easily offend others. Why you chose this path is not not clear nor of any import.
You're the only one that's felt any need of and olive branch all along. An army of one fighting an non-existent battle. I saw none of it as personal - just sharing - until your misguided introduction of irrelevant gear bias comments. That I wrote off as you being uninformed or biased yourself - so added more info. Can't help but notice that once evidence contrary to your assertions is interjected - you bail.
Some people just want enemies I suppose. There are a few (very few) others here I've had similar exchanges with. They offend easily (and without cause), can't stay on topic, introduce other things all over the place to confuse the issue, and get defensive instead of considering other positions openly (all the while claiming extreme openness to things themselves). I'm sure you'd all be fast friends. Surprised they haven't charged to your aid actually...
Only thing I know for sure: You REALLY don't understand my posts. Particularly not the very small points we actually disagree on (if there really are any). You defend what is not being attacked - and ignore what is really being discussed. Shame, as you sound like a really great person to trade info and someday paddle with (same with the couple others I have regular "disagreements" with).
PS - Offense must be taken. It cannot be given. Insults can be given - but need not be taken. Translation: It ain't me buddy. Re-read with no prejudice and you may find something very different in those posts. Or not. Whatever.
Nice to see a discussion once again devolve into the BB version of a knife fight. If you 2 are so hot to tear it up…coupla questions (rhetorical, I’m done after this so don’t bother to respond…just think) WHY? Who really gives a crap what some faceless name thinks and besides which it’s only paddling kids and if you must get into a pissing contest why not then Take it off line? Ego boys? Is there a need for public affirmation?
I'm saying that whether qajaq usa likes it or not they already have a defacto structure for the information they are passing along to us, this structure is from the greenlandic traditions, the clubs, and the competitions. Granted according to Greg and Mark, when I have spoken to them have said there is a lot of variation in the clubs and the regions, you still have a structure and codification of skills and if you go to Greg, Mark Molina, or anyone else who has been to Greenland as an instructor they are going to offer advice based on their experiences in this structure.
So how is this different than the BCU or ACA?
Yet again this isn't to say that the qajaq usa is trying to be like the aca/bcu, but aren't they offering a codification or structure for folks so that they can learn greenlandic traditions and skills? Personally I appreciate it, and admire the effort that has gone into it. But it seems about the same to me minus the certification, which it may be becoming anyway?
mark is not affiliated with the BCU don’t know about his event this january, alleged cuban cuisine, but look at out he is heavily into the ACA Traditional kayaking instructor certification…
learning can be facilitated with structure, although the structure may vary from instructor to instructor or clubs.
The above doesn't mean "codificaton" in the sense that it is written out and made the "standard" for all who choose that structure. Codification can only happen in context of incentive/disincentive, i.e. some sort of granting of rank based on the achievement (or not) of the skills outlined in the progression. Otherwise the structure is simply a guideline or framework for skills development/progression that one can adhere strictly or loosely to.
So, a codified system such as BCU, I assume that you can be great open water navigationist but still can't get BCU 5, if you fail to be able to scull proficiently on both sides required in BCU 3. In the Greenland (or any other non codified) framework) there is no incentive/disincentive, except for personal interest, whether you can do only bow to stern handroll and not reverse stern to bow handroll.
I know you mention the competition as "codification." I disagree. Competition is a game that encourages skills development. Yes, standards, have to be set but that doesn't work it's way down to all aspects of paddling. Just because you can't do a strait jacket roll, no one is going to claim you are or are not a (expert) greenland paddler. No one outside of the competition is keeping score and rank for the Greenland paddler. The issue for most paddlers using GP (and any other type of equipment) style, right now, is simply being proficient enough to be safe in the conditions they choose to go out in.
sing this below:
"The issue for most paddlers using GP (and any other type of equipment) style, right now, is simply being proficient enough to be safe in the conditions they choose to go out in."
is the aim of the BCU 4 star proficiency.
And on your point about competition, it is only part of the unwritten codification that is already in place, the other parts being the club, and the greenland "tradition".
Oh and I agree that codification can only happen with classification or ranking, but this ranking and prioritizing is something we all do based on cultural/historical bias and life experience, otherwise we wouldn't be able to cope with life. We all decide what is important and what is not important. This is one of my main dissappointments with the qajaqusa crowd is how they prioritize rolling above all other techniques in their forums and their focus for passing on information, they choose to really prioritize that skill because it differentiates them from modern paddling. I am not criticizing rolling per se, but the underemphasis of all the other skills. And granted this is dictated by the whim of the masses on their forum. But you see that we all assign these priorities and rank things it is not specific to the certification process.
Really what I am wondering is if you can avoid this structure without avoiding people? I don't think so, if you believe derrida, but I guess that's a debate for the postmodern bicker and banter maybe?
I Admit Total Ignorance… which Greenland related clubs have a written set of “standards” for paddling skills? I know I don’t follow all the posts at Qajaq/USA so I may have missed it.
The only loose group of Greenland paddlers I associate with is the Walden Pond Scum. Sometimes I’ll show up at Walden Pond and bump into someone and ask for help on something I am working on. No one ever said, “You can’t work on this until you work on that.” I sometimes get email to go help because they are running a “Greenland” Intro workshop or something. I can do a balance brace, scull, forward and reverse rolls consistently so I’ll help with anyone working on those. No one ever said to me I can assist in this or that. The limitations of what I think I can help on is set by me. And other emails generally involve someone wanting to go play in waves or something. I don’t get quizzed about what “level” I am at. Either I choose to show or not. Ditto when I sent email about storm riding. A couple of folks joined me and some said, “No thanks”, and the most didn’t respond.
“'The issue for most paddlers using GP (and any other type of equipment) style, right now, is simply being proficient enough to be safe in the conditions they choose to go out in.”
is the aim of the BCU 4 star proficiency.’"
I have no clue where I rate on that proficiency. I do know I am comfortable out there alone, doing a 10-15 mile trip, up to 25 knots winds, waves and chops, in waters that I am familiar with. I have capsized in those conditions, not panicked and rolled back each time and continued on my way.
ranking and prioritizing "ranking and prioritizing is something we all do based on cultural/historical bias and life experience, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to cope with life."
The difference is whether this is an internal process - or a combination of internal and external.
BCU is external ranking - if it fits with your internal priorities/ranking it’s probably a good fit.
I see nothing like that with QajaqUSA. The external is there - but not ranked. Just info/options. Some offer logical learning sequences they feel make it easier to add skills - but these are individual suggestions based on what has worked for them or those they have observed - and there are many options - AND you are free to improvise and explore and to skip around or create new things.
" Qajaq USA is a nonprofit membership organization that is officially recognized by Qaannat Kattuffiat (The Greenland Kayaking Association). Qajaq USA is committed to supporting Qaannat Kattuffiat and their efforts to preserve, study and promote the traditions and techniques of Greenland kayaking while seeking to further the appreciation and development of Greenland-style kayaking in the United States."
Or for kicks why don't you post a thread on qajaqusa telling them you really enjoyed Doug Van Doren's tape on forward stroke and think they might want to check it out and see if you get any kick back?
I think you are failing to recongnize a pattern with clubs and organizations, they all do this, they all offer some form of structure and codification, I'm not saying it's negative, but it is part of what we do as humans.
And for the record I don't have any criticism to level against qajaqusa, or what they are trying to do, as I stated before I really think they're doing an excellent job of promoting traditional paddling. They have a lot of very bright people putting a lot of effort into their masik newsletter, the website, and the events.
someone certifies with the BCU they are not free to make these choices?
"Some offer logical learning sequences they feel make it easier to add skills - but these are individual suggestions based on what has worked for them or those they have observed - and there are many options - AND you are free to improvise and explore and to skip around or create new things."
“the qajaqusa crowd” “This is one of my main disappointments with the qajaqusa crowd is how they prioritize rolling above all other techniques”
Perhaps you are disappointed because you look for leadership to provide you with what you want? This is not how QajaqUSA operates. QajaqUSA is not a “they” who sets forth, it is a “we” who share.
The reason the rolling is one of the most prevalent topics on the boards- is because it is one of the most popular among members. The most challenging in many way. More to discuss and compare.
Really though, building takes up more bandwidth by far than rolling.
I have to ask: Who is this “qajaqusa crowd” you refer to? It is hardly a homogeneous group of people.
I am a QajaqUSA member. Find it too valuable a resource not to support. All I have is a basic Greenland roll with extended or regular grip on one side. I am interested in learning more - and expect it to be even more enjoyable now that the door is open. However - the main (not only) focus of my paddling is still covering a fair amount of distance at decent speed in a very non-traditional kayak.
So how does a Q700 paddler who likes to do 15+ miles non-stop at a good clip fit into your “qajaqusa crowd”? Don’t say I’m an exception, because the majority have composite boats and cannot do dozens of rolls. They must be doing other things on the water as well. Most don’t build (though I would like to). Maybe you only meant the “regular” posters? Only those who have been to Greenland (rather few - hardly a crowd)?
Maybe your desire to codify and rank everything are reaching into places they don’t fit? If you stereotype or otherwise limit the definition of the group, then judge on that limited basis - you will always come up short.
Interesting how differently you view QajaqUSA than I do. You seem to see gurus there dispensing wisdom, I see friends and mentors sharing information. Similar in some ways perhaps, but different in the same way that certification/codification differs from teaching/lessons, or stratified formats like BCU differ from traditional Inuit teaching methods.
All focus on skills development. Since that’s what matters - where’s the conflict?
Free, of course. Free to choose whether the structure is of interest in the first place.
Free to blend and improvise to their hearts content while paddling/practicing.
But is it part of the actual program? Is it allowed in assessments?
Again, please understand I am NOT speaking against BCU program (why are you guys so defensive?). Only discussing differences. You were trying to say QajaqUSA is like BCU - and I just don’t see it.
that much differently than you, with the possible exception of the inherint nature in human beings to rank and codify. If you think I'm wrong then you're naive.
Do I need to be lead? No, but I do like to recognize patterns with people and groups and be cogniscent of them, and not pretend that because I dislike one group of people, that another group I do like can't be doing the exact same thing, but be less obvious about it.
"So how does a Q700 paddler who likes to do 15+ miles non-stop at a good clip fit into your "qajaqusa crowd"?
Hmmm. I guess I don't really think about where you fit, and that's up to you to figure out not me.
Do I need to rank and codify every one and everything with paddling? Not at all. It has been an interesting discussion
"Maybe your desire to codify and rank everything are reaching into places they don't fit? If you stereotype or otherwise limit the definition of the group, then judge on that limited basis - you will always come up short."
I didn't stereo type anyone, I recognized a thread or pattern on the forum and posted it there, and you're right building does take up a lot of bandwidth too. And I even posted that I am just as guilty as the rest of them, you can look back through the threads at their forum and see where I posted about rolls, asking for help and advice too. I am not judging any one there? Where do you come up with this stuff? And If I come up short in your eyes I'll take that as praise.