Apples and oranges
The organization has structure. It does not lay out how to or how not to do things “properly”. Only provides information on the rolls, strokes, etc.
You are mistaking individual member opinions as being official QajaqUSA gospel.
The Van Doren example is a good one to show how you are mixed up on this. There is a link to Doug’s video on QajaqUSA’s Technique page:
http://www.qajaqusa.org/Technique/Technique.html
Greg in particular is very open and I’ve seen him recommend the video (along with others at the same time of course) several times.
This (forward stroke and grip difference) only gets debated by individuals on the discussion forum (just like a discussion we had probably a year ago. In fact you were the one who woke me up to the differences. For a while, I couldn’t understand what you were talking about until I realized the grip difference and impact on paddle design). Rolls and other techniques are the same.
BTW - I heard through a more recent student of Doug’s that he’s gone to more of a “Greenland” style grip out on blade roots and was teaching cant. Something to do with either going to Greenland or meeting Greenlanders… More in your neck 'o the woods -so you probably know more than I do.
hmm
a recent study of doug’s technique, is that a hi fallutin way of sayin watchin him paddle?
It depends
just like it would depend on whether or not you would get much out of a greenland skills session in a rec boat with a euro paddle at a qajaqusa event right?
for a four or five star proficiency you could use either, for a coaching training or assessment 3 star I think you would have to be able to use both modern and gp, if you were so inclined to use a traditional paddle.
Leadership
Yes, human mind compares and categorizes ad nausem. Some structures are natural, some imposed. This is all relevant I suppose, but somewhat tangential don’t you think?
Not all order involves leadership. Maybe that’s the difference? There are “officals” in QajaqUSA to ensure it can run, but they are not leaders or coaches or assesors of individual skills. I’m trying to keep this about the learning aspect - not organizational management. Very different things.
So maybe there is one conflict: You don’t stick to one specific thing long enough for anyone to make a point.
You started this whacko
deviation from the question I asked not me.
"Student"
as in: Someone who took a class with him!
Don’t read so hard man!
L Thanks!
Thanks for a good thread anyway - even if it didn’t quite go as you wanted so far!
who was the student?
well those are different things
and I think qajaq usa is moving towards having sanctioned instructors.
But for another separate arguments sake, why don't they ask doug van doren to teach at qajaq training camp in michigan, or delmarva? or for that matter why don't they ask sing?
I have a suspiscion about the answer but it leads us around in circles...
Cant remember, but…
… the thread was here. Search for “Van Doren” maybe. Gotta run but maybe I’ll have a look later.
Whoever it was, he basically managed to stop that “battle” with his description of what he was now taught. I remember replying for specific details on hand grip taught as this was new info.
BTW - My issue with with that whole deal is really VERY narrow. I am 100% sure Doug is 10x the paddler I am. I am equally sure his original technique worked fine. My concern was only that it requires a longer loom - and anyone ordering a GP should know there is a difference in technique that also impacts the paddle design. Different makers size for different techniques. Most seem to size for “Greenland” style, but BBK and some others in Mid-West sized for hands all on loom grip. I’m more concerned that people get properly sized paddles for what they want to do - not really concerned with what they want to do. Don’t like an all on loom grip myself - but realize I’m not everyone.
not really sure
doug has modified his technique, you’d have to ask him personally or watch him if you come to the WMCKA Symposium this year, or the MICKO one. But the last time I saw him paddle, (pool sessions) last week he seemed about the same.
Wow…
you two are still going at it, eh? 
I must admit, I haven’t been asked to go teach at Delmarva, nor expect to as I have nothing to offer that many others there can’t provide and more.
And, even more truthfully, I only considered going to Delmarva ever so briefly…
I decided Santa Cruz is more my cup of tea. Looking forward to that again this March.
sing
Like I said…
…you’d know better- just passing on what I read. Can’t find it BTW. Thought I found the thread - but those posts were not there.
BTW - amazing how often you name comes up on QajaqUSA when searching for “Doren” L. I’ll let you and Brian have that battle to yourselves. I agree with him on the principle and history stuff, but don’t find the subject nearly as interesting as you two obviously do.
Qajaq USA events/instructors
>and I think qajaq usa is moving towards having >sanctioned instructors.
No, we have absolutely no plans for that. However, I am for putting as much technique and instructional information on the web to allow someone to learn these skills (and positively influence the ACA/BCU). This includes suggested learning progressions, technique hints and instructional hints. (BTW, regarding a rolling bias, we have as many web articles on rope gymnastics as we do rolling)
But for another separate arguments sake, why >don’t they ask doug van doren to teach at qajaq >training camp in michigan, or delmarva? or for >that matter why don’t they ask sing?
We have had Al and Betsie Anderson (Betsie Bay Kayaks) participate at the Michigan training camp the last several years. If you look at our website you will find that we advertise Doug Van Doren’s video with other resources.
One feature of Delmarva is hosting at least one instructor from Greenland. Qajaq USA intends to keep Greenland as the center of Greenland kayaking. Our events strive to teach (where possible) the same techniques that are taught in Greenland. Most instructors are volunteers.
Sing, if you want to teach you simply contact Robin Snow (and other event organizers). She doesn’t care if you are ACA/BCU, Walden Qajaq Society, or “Team Zero” as long as you know your stuff and can safely and effectively lead a class.
Greg Stamer
Double Wow!
Greg,
Thanks, but my response to Keith was sort of tongue in cheek, except the part about Santa Cruz.
My current interest is with surfing, followed by white water, more than anything else. So I’ve focused more of my (limited) time and resources toward those than anything else.
While I don’t agree with all of the perspectives of some forum participants at Qajaq/USA, I am very comfortable with the Qajaq/USA’s mission as a whole – which is to spread info and share knowledge about Greenland Paddling Techniques and culture.
sing
Thanks Greg…
For the clarifications. I am also a member of Qajaq USA and I’m a member for many reasons, least of which is merit badges.
Keep up the good work.
Matt
Traditional Paddle Use
I used a EURO paddle for 3 STAR Cert and my Greenland for my 4 Star Training. Both done at Sea Kayak Georgia. No problems with the usage other than some comments about catching waves during the surfing portion, but that could have just been my skills not the paddle. I do not think I will continue to pursue BCU certification. I have taken traditional training thru the ACA with both Mark Molina, fabulous Instructor, and some others. I think the baseline safety and planning from either the BCU or ACA is very good, but I think the ACA is much farhter ahead on traditional paddling.
Scott Brown
Surfing without a helmet?
Not if there any paddlers anywhere near me. Heck, even my own paddle or boat might do me in.
A helmet or pfd may not stop a waterfilled kayak, but I’ll take anything that gives me an edge, if it presents only a reasonable inconvenience.
dressing up
for the task at hand.
gravity/rocks/momentum/pointy boats/paddles/surf
uhhhh… helmet and PFD.
IMNSHO
steve