Trying to decide on length for sea kayak

Wow!
Thanks for all of the input! I will try to respond in summary rather than individually.



First, I am taking a kayak rescue class in June, and planned on adding another class to help me fine tune my paddling. So I do appreciate that advice, and maybe I will add a class on rolling.



I have capsized in a whitewater kayak and canoe before, just not in the big yak. And I have never had to try re-entry in the water, hence the kayak rescue course.



My typical paddling group tend to be the advanced recreational type, whose main goal is to get from A to B, enjoying the scenery and conversation on the way and the cocktails at camp after. None of them knows how to roll, although several can do rescue. We don’t seek out rough days on the water, but run into them at times, and that’s what I really want to be prepared for. But I just wanted to clarify that I’m not trying to keep up with a super-fast, skilled group of kayakers.



I am interested in Beau’s comment about boats with a high bow. My boat seems to ride very low and take a lot more water in the cockpit than the other boats we are out with. I realize this is normal in rough water, but this is the case even in light chop. That’s why I end up feeling swamped in comparison to my BF in his Cape Horn.



For example, on a fairly short paddle to camp on Lake George last year, in about 1-2 foot chop and wind, I took on about a half-liter of water through my nylon sprayskirt and my boyfriend was dry with no skirt on at all. (And I was not on my edge at all, the water was just washing right over my cockpit while he stayed dry.) That’s the trip that shook my confidence a little and made me wonder about the sea worthiness of my boat should I hit rougher-than-anticipated water on the coast. I do think that the rounded hull makes for a less stable ride in rough water.



My budget is under 1200, preferably a bit less if I can find a boat used. I am patient and persistent so I am fairly confident I can do that. But I do like the idea of waiting and taking the lessons in my Shadow, then applying those skills while demoing boats. I am going kayaking in Acadia in July for a weekend, so maybe I will try to rent one of my preferred demos while up there.



Thanks so much for all of the recs for specific boats. I am looking at each of them and will demo as many as possible in the coming months. Any further input based on this post is very much appreciated.

Rutabaga

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 8:37 AM EST –

has a clearance Impex Mystic for a super price. Its a 14' boat but it's not plastic. For that kind of savings though it may be something to consider.
Also, nessmuking.com has a good article on kayak length vs. speed.

paddling a sea kayak without skirt

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 9:01 AM EST –

ok, now we're getting somewhere. You want to paddle without a sprayskirt and not get waves in your lap. Sure, there's a slew of "transitional" or quasi rec/sea kayaks out there. The challenge is finding one that's not for a 200lb paddler.
Regarding skirts, nylon skirts are horrid for your application. I taught using Shadows and the cockpits are large (ironically wider than Sea lions/Eclipses), the nylon skirts don't stretch and water will puddle and leak. The challange is finding a stretchy easy to put on and take off neoprene skirt.

Seriously have someone go over your technique as the overuse injuries in your arms have to be addressed BEFORE you get any new boat.

I'd look at a Manitou 13 or CD Vision 13 and learn to paddle without a rudder. What kind/length of paddle are you using?

Your bow has nothing to do with shipping water, your coaming is low to the water at the hips and back.

re. Beaus comments about Pygmy and CLC boats, the most common ones are appropriate for 175-225lb paddlers. I'd discourage you from getting a homemade s&g kayak until you have better fundamentals under you about skirt use and rescues. Most s&g Chesapeakes I've seen aren't finished or outfitted by experienced paddlers and you're more likely to take on a project than a solution.

When I made a similar move…

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 11:55 AM EST –

What you want to do is a very close match to what I/we do in our kayaking. Lake George, the coast of Maine and once a year usually some paddling off of Wood's Hole and out of the Narrows in RI. Your upgrade situation is not dissimilar to ours when we took our little 13 footers to Maine and ended up stuck on an island in a squall for a few hours. We had lots of time to figure out what we were lacking to be safe.

We went out and got full-out sea kayaks, some skills and better clothing, including working towards a roll. To me, you are in the same spot (without the embarrassment of being stuck on an island).

So - go for a roll now. It'll improve your braces and other maneuvers that can avoid needing one, as well as giving you a backup should they fail. Rolling is not an advanced skill for kayaking big water, despite a lot of wishful thinking out there.

On boats, a higher decked boat is not the answer for the situations you name. A boat with lower volume that you can turn and edge more easily, with a neo skirt and being willing to be a little damp in the cockpit, is a better solution.

You also need a volume that matches your size - you have average paddler height but your weight is a little under that for a guy. The looksha may be overshooting the mark for you...

The Shadow is a decent boat - we've seen guides use them on the coast - but is a little quirky. I'm with JackL on it being a good idea to at least try to resolve your concerns about stability with this boat. But there are others that'll probably be a better ride for you as you get your skills to where they match your paddling goals. Some are available in plastic, which would get them into a price point that'd work for you.

Nate is absolutely correct about having a low rear deck for re-entry. Trying to haul your butt (literally) and balance over a tall back deck is going to tire you out much more with every attempt than something lower. This is tolerable in a nice warm pool or near shore, but in the 59 degree water of summer in Maine it's a real risk.

By the way, if you are going to Acadia try to hook up Mark Schoon and Mel Rice of Carpe Diem kayaking. They have some really apt boats for you to try.

Also, if you are paddling offshore in a group of just two, you can't assume that you'll be OK as long as the other person can help rescue you. I've been in a situation where one rescue consumed three paddlers, and it happened half a mile from shore in a river just up from the opening into the ocean. Most of the paddlers had their roll and all had time in more serious conditions. We got there due to some poor decision making, but we could have had the same thing happen due to a sudden and unavoidable squall.

perception sole
There’s a Sole for sale on the Maine Craigslist this week, for what it’s worth.

rescues
Another thought that your responses brought up -



Rescues need to be a first priority for you, and it’s great that you’re taking a rescue clinic this spring. The fact that you paddle with people who are more on the rec-boat end of the spectrum, and sometimes get caught out in conditions that are over their head, is a red flag. That’s all the more reason to really concentrate on rescue skills, and try to spread that concern to your paddling group. Paddling companions who can’t rescue themselves and can’t rescue each other are, in my opinion, a liability and not an asset.



How does all this relate to your boat shopping? Well, a higher-volume, higher-riding, more stable kayak is likely to be harder to climb back into, solo or assisted. This is especially true for someone like you who has expressed doubts about your upper body strength. You can definitely be taught to do self and assisted rescues, with a good coach and plenty of practice. But a higher volume boat will make that more difficult. Your Shadow has a fairly low rear deck. That’s an asset for you in terms of self rescues. If the water splashing over your cockpit is bothering you, I’d recommend a neoprene skirt (which you are comfortable removing - they don’t have to be super tight), and some training to gain confidence so those waves don’t get your heart rate up so much. Dressing so that you are comfortable when wet will also help you relax more, and eliminate another source of concern.



Sea kayaking is a “get wet” sport. The key is to get to a point where the splashes are just a part of the fun, and don’t feel dangerous and scary to you. The answer is not, in my opinion, to buy a boat that will keep you further away from the water.

Good info

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 10:48 AM EST –

I remember when my wife was shopping for her kayak. Her requirements were very similar to yours. She wanted a drier ride, comfort, enough stability and a nice looking boat. Basically she did not want to worry and wanted to feel good knowing that she can grow her skill with her boat. She didn't like to get her hair wet, she did not want to do wet exits.

She has similar numbers as you have posted only she might be a couple of inches taller.

We consulted a few people and one of them suggested Seda Ikkuma. The boat will fit bigger paddlers too but it is lightweight, she has a good contact with the boat to edge it, it sits higher - therefore offering a drier ride. Her ikkuma is 17 feet. Seda makes identical Ikkuma in 15 feet version. i think this might be what you want. (get a neoprene sprayskirt)

Pool sessions in warm water are great to practice rescues. My wife and I can now do all kinds of rescues with confidence. She loves her boat.

New England Small Craft in Rowley, MA has one 15 foot Ikkuma. The price is going to be more than your budget but i have a feeling that you can get a great deal on this ikkuma at NESC. The reason I think so is because it has been there for a while and because it has been mislabeled at the factory. The bow label says ikkuma 17 yet it is a 15 foot boat.

weight…

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 11:31 AM EST –

the OP stated she weighed 150 #s ...so I am assuming that 150 is "ready for the shower" weight....add another 10-15# for clothing/paddle gear/boat gear..and another 40-50-60+ #'s of camping gear ..any paddler will hit max load easily enuf for most boats. For example...I would think it's better to put 30#'s in a 50# bag than try to put 30#'s in a 10# bag. Also,I am assuming that anyone looking at wooden boats will know enough not to buy anything like that unless it is in top-notch, A1 condition and not some unfinished or poorly finished boat. I looked @ a couple of S&G boats built locally that were for sale on craigs....took me 5 seconds to say NO and walk away and i'm no expert by any means. As no slam to anyone on P-net ..we need to understand that in order to avoid long winded posts , ppl leave things out and we have to fill in some blanks and read between the lines for the sake of brevity in posts.

NESC
I cannot comment on the Ikkuma, but I can on New England Small Craft in Rowley, MA.



Joel, Brad and the staff at NESC are some of the nicest folks to deal with and know they their stuff.

I purchased my first ‘serious’ sea kayak from them back in 2000 and I purchase my most recent boat from them.



Once you have a favor for what you would like they should be able to outfit you and provide focused options.

shorter

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 1:36 PM EST –

If you want to try some shorter boats, the WS Tsunami 135 and Dagger Alchemy 14.0S would be a good match for your size.

A good point was made about boat volume and self- or assisted rescue. High-volume boats can be more difficult to reenter. I remember one rescue(not practice) in which the victim could not pull herself onto her own boat, even when I was holding it. It was too tall. She had to get on to the stern of my boat first and then pull herself across to her boat.

Good candidates for fit…
One thing that seems to be coming up is a desire for a boat that’ll make it easier to keep up with a group. Between the two boats mentioned, the 135 may offer a better shot at that. (Tho’ I think the Alchemy is much more fun.)

I was going to match Angstroms points
since your situation seems somewhat similar to that of my GF. She’s close to your height and weight. She was paddling a Looksha IV, and doing quite well with it, but enjoys herself much more now in her Tsunami 135. She also liked the Alchemy 14 S a lot, but we got a deal on the Tsunami. With the seatback replaced with the backband, and hip pads installed, she has very comfortable outfitting that gives her great boat control. She doesn’t miss the rudder at all, even in side winds or following or quartering seas. The 135 Tsunami is fairly narrow for it’s length, and I think it is often overlooked by small-framed folks. The Alchemy comes with the backband and the hip pads, and it is a very comfortable and easy-to-adjust outfitting system.

Your lesson will be invaluable
When you take your lesson, be ‘that gal’ in the class who asks question after question after question.



Get to the class early and ask the instructor about boats.



Ask more questions about boats during breaks on the water.



Ask questions about boats after the lesson. After your instructor has seen you paddle, ask about compromises between boat designs. Stable is often slow. Straight is hard to turn. Etc, etc. Get more advice from people knowledgeable in the sport and familiar with your paddling.



Read up on primary and secondary stability, then take another lesson. Paddle a different boat. Pay attention to the differences you feel.



Nate offered great advice. The best investment you can make is in your own paddling. Some very good paddlers say: “Body, Boat, Blade.” I would add “Brain, Body, Boat, Blade” in descending order of importance.

just speaking from experience
teaching sea kayaking, rolling, building s&g kayaks and seeing what people build. Most s&g kits are built by people who just want to build and the interiors are sharp, the inside edges of the coamings aren’t rounded enough, the hip braces aren’t secured well, the ends and edges aren’t rounded well, the hatch edges aren’t sealed well.



For a beginner the basic Chesapeake won’t cultivate skills development compared to other s&g designs or a lot of molded plastic boats because the ends don’t break loose on a lean beyond 15degrees. In winds above 10mph leaning becomes less effective and brute strength starts to be the prefered technique, or a rudder. In a boxy beamy boat that’s no fun in high winds and a rudder doesn’t make a boat turn around it’s center better.

Random points

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 1:10 PM EST –

* I suspect that the original poster isn't talking about the kind of "big water" that others are assuming she is (based, in part, on the fact that she hasn't capsized).

* I'm going to suggest that self-rescue (not rolling) in rough/big water doesn't generally work that well. I'd suggest making sure she paddles with other people (who can rescue) in rough water.

* It would be interesting to know what "dry" boat her boyfriend was using and what his weight is.

* Boats with tall decks often can be harder to manage in wind.

* If she wants to be dry in "rough" water, a neoprene skirt is what she should be using.

* While rudders can keep people from learning boat control, if she wants a rudder, so what?

* Some of the problems with stability in "rough" water might be her not keeping her hips loose.





A couple of them
Boyfriend has a Cape Horn 15.

OPer hasn’t done it yet, but states as a goal that she plans on doing more open water kayaking in the future (Maine coast and such). Also wants to camp from the kayak one or two nights. That’ll almost surely get her to the islands, many of which are themselves well-protected but then there are the crossings to get there.

practice and help
All the above advice was very good and should be considered.



My advice is to expand your experience base through practice before focusing on getting “the” kayak.



I’m making the assumption that you live in Ct by the start of your online name. If I’m correct about you living in Ct, you should join ConnYak ($15). If I’m wrong about that ignore what’s below.



The ConnYak winter pool sessions just ended but summer practice sessions will start to practice rolls and rescues as soon as the water gets warmer-late May or early June. There are no “instructors” or “classes” at these informal practice sessions. Instead, a number of skilled and experienced kayakers will help you voluntarily.



There are some places in Ct that do offer paid instruction with trained instructors if you choose to go that route instead. A matter of comfort and time, both approaches have worked for members.



Many of the ConnYak paddles are in semi sheltered areas such as the Thimble Islands. The paddles in more exposed and challenging areas can be avoided until you develop the appropriate skill and comfort levels. A Greenland paddle could help protect your wrists, and on a group paddle someone with a GP could exchange paddles with you for a while for comparison testing. Learning to paddle mostly with trunk muscles increases your endurance and reduces the stress on the wrists.



Best wishes in your quest,



Dave

Cape Horn

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 1:49 PM EST –

Yes, that was mentioned. I wonder how much the boyfriend weighs. I think it was also mentioned that the coaming is higher on the Cape Horn.

OP: "My boyfriend has a Cape Horn 15, which rides nice and high and is quite stable, but it's too big a fit for me. That's the type of ride I think I would like, though."

Seems it might be hard to get a boat that "rides high" and isn't too big.

Regarding Maine conditions, I still suspect that many people replying are thinking "This is the sea" kinds of big water and that the OP isn't.

Her Shadow (for example) should be big enough to camp for a few days. (I weigh more than her and use a Romany for this, but I expect it to be a bit wet.) She probably should not be looking at huge "expedition" boats. If she gets a boat that "rides high", she might be unhappy with the windage.

Buy this
http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandCommercialForum_config.pl?read=4057



Just get rid of the dorky hatch knobs. Its fast, capable, good looking, rolls well and located in CT.



I have no association with this boat.

Probably

– Last Updated: Mar-30-10 1:52 PM EST –

and in the summer even the bays of Maine are not exactly This is the Sea stuff unless you are up around the Bay of Fundy or in a reversing falls.

But even then the conditions, especially around the further islands, are probably still above the OPer's present experience and comfort zone. Especially if you add the water temp and the pea soup fog that can catch you in 20 minutes.

This just isn't a place to be for someone who wants a boat to keep them upright and dry, unless it has a motor.