Expand your search.
There are a lot of really good boats out there that you need to look at. Be sure to see what Current Designs, Necky and a few others have to offer.
If you’re looking at used boats and new ones for that matter, be sure to check them for straightness. Polyethylene boats are notorious for getting bent if they are stored wrong and sometimes they come out of the mold crooked. Sight down the keel line with the boat upside down. Do not accept a boat that is bent, or dented–period.
LLBEAN
LLBean.com is having a sale 20% off all wilderness systems kayaks. The Tsunami 140 is at $983.00.
Just a thought.
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My 1 Cent
Not sure how it compares to everything else, but a Conduit 13 from Perception Sport is a renamed Dagger Catalyst 13 touring kayak, and is rudder-ready. Not sure how it compares to WS kayaks, but it handles very, very well, and is only $550 at Dick’s.
The Pungo 140 is a Great boat
The folks I know who paddle the Pungo 140 have no trouble keeping up with us in our sea kayaks. They have bulkheads and hatches and are unlikely to sink, But they have big wide open hatches that will not keep out big waves even if you use a skirt. So they are more like white water canoes as far as rescues go. If you get one, I would recommend installing an electric pump.
For about the same price you could get a Dagger Alchemy L. It would only be a tad slower than the Pungo in my experience, but it operates like a normal sea kayak, so you could take it into any conditions your skills could handle.
I know – and I’m leaning that way
I was really trying to stay under $800 for my first purchase, but the Tsunami 140 is very tempting at this point. I was worried that the cockpit would be too tight for me, but I sat in one today and it was perfect.
I see some folks recommending Dagger and Perception boats. I know those are the same parent company as Wilderness Systems (WS) – can anyone corroborate my understanding, which is WS are generally better made (thicker plastic, better trim, more comfortable seating)?
I am tempted to go to Dicks and buy a Conduit 13 as one poster recommended, with the thinking being that I’ll get 1.5+ seasons out of it before wanting to upgrade, and at which time I’ll know more about what I really want.
Get the Tsunami and you may not want
to upgrade.
And get a good paddle and PFD.
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They’re all made …
– Last Updated: Jul-29-12 10:40 PM EST –
in the same factory using the same materials. The Tsunami is a fine boat and very popular. IMO the Perception Expression has equivalent or better features (i.e. comes with a skeg) for less money - possibly because they are a new design this year and are not yet in high demand liek the Tsunami. The Tsunami comes rudder ready (optional) while the Expression is also rudder ready, but comes standard with a skeg.
P.S. the Pungo is also a fine boat and quite fast, but because it was designed with a large open cockpit it was not intended for ocean or large lakes use where the water is consistently rough.
Pricing/choices
The price point may have you looking at just Wilderness Systems but if $ isn’t the solely limiting factor there are other options for you like the new Islay by Venture Kayaks. Other manufacturers such as Current Designs and Hurricane have models that’s be appropriate for the waters you plan on paddling.
Best of wishes in your new paddling pursuits.
See you on the Water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www. the-river-connection.com
Handling on big water
Just to agree with some above - if handling on big water includes waves and managing a capsize well away from shore, the Pungo isn’t remotely it. And I’d say no go for Lake Erie anyway - even near shore I’ve seen those lake waves be steep and short period, stuff that is only reliably handled by a full out sea kayak.
If you look at manufacturer’s statements, they say the same. Rec boats are for flat water and quiet lakes - not inland seas that can suddenly ramp up with 3 ft plus steep waves in the space of 10 minu8tes that send motor boats screaming in for port.
At the least for Lake Erie you need two bulkheaded areas, perimeter lines and a small enough cockpit to take a skirt that will hold against dumping waves or surf. And some practice for yourself to be able to handle an on-water re-entry. The least you need is what used to be called a transition boat, one intended to have some of the features of a sea kayak with somewhat higher primary stability closer to a rec boat.
There are lots of them around - best way to try them out is to go out with someone who can run you thru an on-water self-rescue in one or a few of them. It’s tone of the fastest way to find out what features you’ll want in a boat for a long hold.
Lots of choices
– Last Updated: Jul-30-12 11:40 AM EST –
I also live in NE Ohio, but on the east side and I too frequent Lake Erie and many of the local lakes and rivers.
My wife and I own a pair of Tsunamis, the 140 for her and the 145 for me. At 5'7" and 210, the 140 is a better "fit" for me but we do several camping trips each year and I like the 145 for the extra cargo and weight capacity. We can carry enough supplies for 5 - 7 days with these touring yaks! I bought the Harmony hip pad kit to pad out the hip area on our boats and I replaced the high-back seat with the Harmony backband on my yak. These changes make a big difference re. re-entry and overall boat control.
I would agree that a 14' touring kayak (with two bulkheads) is the minimum you should consider for venturing out in Lake Erie. The 14/14.5" Tsunamis are good "do-it-all" kayaks that also lend themselves to lakes and rivers. My wife loves her rudder but I now actually prefer a skeg due to it's simplicity and ease of re-entry. While my wife is satisfied with her boat and does not seek to advance her skills, I have since purchased a Nordkapp RM and admit this is now my favorite boat for Lake Erie.
While the Tsunami is a good choice (with very comfortable seating), unless you also plan on camping excursions I would also consider some of the other plastic alternatives such as the new Perception Expression, Dagger Alchemy 14L, North Shore Aspect RM (if you can find one), Venture Islay or Easky, etc. The only shorter boat I would consider is the thermoformed Delta 12.10 which is rigged like a sea kayak but without a skeg or rudder option.
A touring boat with a higher degree of primary stability like the Tsunami would also lend itself to fishing as well. (I like my Nordkapp but it demands greater attention out on the water.)
While a few hours away, Riverside Kayak in Wyandotte, MI has a large selection of boats and you can demo them there as well:
http://www.riversidekayak.com/
Dagger, WIlderness, and Perception
Dagger is their white water and rough water brand. Most of their designs are for moving water. But their Dagger Alchemy is also a competent touring boat that is the choice of many Kayak surfers and rock garden players.
Wilderness Systems is their touring and fishing line. Even their surf boat the Kaos got re-names as the Dagger Kaos. They will have the latest in fishing and touring designs and the most up to date seating and outfitting gadgets in the boats.
Perception seems to be the discount line with older designs or more simple designs and more basic outfitting and hatches. In at least one case these older more proven styles are better than the current offerings of the other lines, especially when it comes to outfitting and hatches. I think their are some really good deals and my perception of the quality of all three lines is that they all are the same very good level of work.
very well said
Thank you!
Thank you! Lots to think about!
Combined with all your comments – and my wife’s desire that I not spend $1,000+ on a new hobby out of the gate – I think I’m going to focus on the Perception line of boats.
Considering that everyone is advising me to stay of Lake Erie in a 14’, I’m going to focus my needs on nearby large inland lakes (Mogadore, West Branch, Portage, all at least 1,000 acres).
I think I will primarily use the boat for exercise, developing kayaking skills, nature observation, and occassionally fishing. Right now I’m leaning toward the Carolina – having spoken with a dealer who suggested the Expression would be difficult for a beginner to fish from but at the same time not be noticeably faster than a Carolina in the long-term.
My main concern, now, with the Carolina is that I won’t really be able to use it to learn how to / practice rolling.
Perception discount line
– Last Updated: Jul-31-12 9:24 AM EST –
Also Perception has a "house brand" line called Perception Sport that has 31 models they evidently produce only for Dick's Sporting Goods chain -- these are stripped down versions of some of their better boats made to be mass marketed. It includes rec boats, sit on tops and "angler" kayaks intended for fishing. You have already looked at their Conduit 13 in that line.
Though some have safety and performance features you usually would not find in discount store kayaks (like bukheads and optional rudders), they do have cheaper seats, flimsier hardware, less rigging, finished not quite as well, compared to the Wilderness Systems models or similar competitors. They do this so they can be sold at around 15% cheaper than equivalent sized and styled boats. But they are careful in their product specs to avoid suggesting that even the largest of them (the 14' Rhythm) could be used anywhere but "slow rivers and calm lakes."
On one hand they may just be trying to maintain the distinction between the "full price" line boats and the cheapies, but it could also be that they are unwilling to stand behind the integrity of the boat hulls and fittings of these discount boats in rough or threatening conditions. A seriously leaking hatch or seat that breaks loose from the hull would be a real issue out on some big water.
rolling boat
If you want a boat to learn to roll with (that is also big water capable), I’ve got a used one that would fit you for sale for $400 down the road a bit (Pittsburgh).
http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/boa/3170399311.html
Not just Dicks’…
I have no idea what Confluence is doing with their Perception Sport brand, but in Quebec (where there are no Dicks’ outlets)I have seen some Perception Sport boats in “Atmosphere” stores. In the States, the Perception Sport web-site lists several retailers other than Dicks.
http://www.perceptionsport.com/dealerlocator
Are these cheaper boats inferior in terms of construction and fittings? I don’t know, it is certainly possible; Yet it seems that the Pescador line of Sit-on-Tops (essentially the pre-2008 Tarpons) use superior, older style hatches no longer found on the latest Tarpons.
bears inspection
Next time I am near the local Dick’s I plan to check out these newer kayak models. I know when I carefully looked over their “house” version of the Mad River Adventure canoes (Dick’s version is called the Passage and is $100 cheaper) the hardware and seats seemed to my eyes to be noticably poorer on the Passage than the Adventure though the hulls are cast from the same molds. And I did find user reviews that mentioned hardware breaking on the Passage. Could have been the boats I looked at were older stock or something but I am sure that Old Town would not have the discount priced boat be IDENTICAL to the base line boat. That would be a poor marketing strategy.
I’ll be very surprised if the new kayaks are identical to the non-house brand versions, but I’m willing to check them out to see if my perceptions are valid.
I suspect it is like the Hanes cotton undies I’ve bought at Walmart. Packaging and product looks the same (except for tiny print on the package reverse stating these are made for Walmart). But they are noticably thinner fabric and every pair in the packages I bought sprang holes around the elastic waist within a few washes. SOme even have spontaneous holes that erupted in the middle of the fabric. They are now the raggedy underwear my mom would not want me to wear because “what if you’re in an accident and they take you to the hospital?” Bought several packs of the “same” style package of Hanes undies from Target over a year ago and they have held up fine. So I bought another package from Target in the Spring and they also have proved more durable than the Walmart versions (so it wasn’t that quality had gone down across the board – Walmart’s version really is flimsier).
Big box discounters like Walmart go to vendors and say : “this is the price point we want – match it however you need to and we’ll buy boatloads from you. If you can’t, no sale.” There have been a few manufacturers who have refused to degrade their quality (or shift production overseas) to meet those prices and some of them have really struggled as a result. I think we should all be aware of the ultimate consequences of “the lowest price…always” in the degradation of quality and undermining the foundation of domestic production and buyer choice in the long run. The cheapest product is not always the best value for the consumer or the economy.
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Perception Sport Swiftwater
The Swiftwater line is clearly the same kayak mold as the old Dagger Blackwater line, just minus the skeg.
The photo of the 12 really looks like they just took a picture of the Blackwater model and Photoshopped out the Dagger logo, recessed moldings for the grab handles but then they left the skeg line near the cockpit while the kayak text never mentions a skeg.
On Swiftwater 10 photo you can see all the empty spots designed for the Blackwater outfitting – skeg, dual attachment carry handles.
I wonder if they just left an open cavity where the skeg would have gone.
Hatches
Have experienced some hatch leakage, but it should be covered under waranty (will find out). The Conduit is a rec/touring crossover, so it may not be as suitable for large waves as a Tsunami. The accesories aren’t worth the $1000 original price, but for $550, the hull is great quality and works for me.
Perception Sport
To answer the question about the Swiftwater vs the Dagger Blackwater, it’s the same boat but the mold has been retooled to fill in the slot where the skeg used to be. Having paddled the Swiftwater 10.5 for a couple of months now, I’d say they’ve done both the boat and the user a real disservice by making it skegless - the 10.5 has become little more than a toy now.
Also, the Conduit is simply the Blackwater Catalyst, also retooled to be skegless.