rudder??
With a stern hung rudder like I have, I can’t see it being a hindrance, as in the lean, most of the rudder is out of the water anyway, and when the stern swings around, it is pulling the rudder out more.
Stern Hung Rudder
On another boat I have both an internal and a stern hung rudder. Can drop the blade off the stern rudder and use the internal or put the external rudder blade back on and drop the internal rudder out and put a small piece of electrical tape over the hole. I like the internal a lot better and in any swells the blade isn’t popping out of the water. Guess this is why the surf skis went this route. Here is a pic.
http://www.grovestreet.com/jsp/onepic.jsp?id=413188
Lots of variables
– Last Updated: Apr-23-04 5:48 AM EST –
I use to think I had an understanding of how kayaks turn. But the more I paddle the less I think I know. Edging a sea kayak will definitely help you to make the boat assist your turns and is a great tool. But you can also take a sea kayak and lean it way into the turn and have similar or even better results. I found this video clip and although this guy is not trying to portray and inside leaning turn, he does and it works.
http://www.seakayak.ws/photocat.nsf/webphotos/86CB6B6FFED4C5FF85256D7E0060B80A
I know this video was not intended to show an inside leaning turn but you can see the guy had shortened the waterline by leaning to the right then he put a sweep on the left and the boat turned easily. By leaning the boat, he added rocker, making the boat turn like a much short one. And i know the guy was doing stationary spin but I think the point of leaning inside is readily visible. And obviously, the farther you lean, the shorter the boat gets, unless you tip over.
It seems that shortening the boats waterline and pushing the bow works pretty good no matter which way you lean. Personally I have found I can turn my mariner in a much tighter radius if I lean towards the direction I want to go and sweep on the oppositte side. I loose a little forward speed but the boat turns a heck of a lot sharper. That seems to be the complete opposite of the edging described in the most basic sea kayaking classes but it works very well for me. It may feel pretty awkward at first, leaning out over the boat towards the direction you wish to turn, and I have no idea about what a glider feels like when doing something like this but I don't suspect it would hurt to try.
The page that had the video clip also had some other useful info. http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/NavigationList/NT0000090A
When I first paddled a 16 foot boat I used egding as my primary tool for turning. Then I got that boat out in waves and wind and found leaning inside worked way better for me. In surf play, edging, for me, is t#ts on the bull. I have no need for it. That seems to translate well for me outside the surf as well. I still edge to turn. My boat does that very well. I think I just enjoy leaning inside to turn a little better. Maybe I am just a bit dumb. Doing it the wrong way and all.
If you wanted to turn, why did you get a
19’ kayak?
turning
Since most races we have are an out and back course or around bouys, and my legs don’t stick out of the hull like a Flintstones’s car, I need to turn.
This was true of rowing/sculling races
in the 1800s. Must make for some fascinating calculations on your part. My single scull was another 8’ longer than your kayak, but I had those long oars to apply turning leverage.
Agree
– Last Updated: May-04-04 9:09 AM EST –
If you don't mind scrubbing off some speed, an outside sweep followed by an inside low brace/stern rudder and a hard(skirt in the water)inside lean will make some boats pivot very nicely. Since your upper body is almost parallel with the water, doing an abdominal crunch at the same time helps bring the bow around. It may not be "efficient", but it sure is fun.
gliders are tough
My glider has a feathercraft rudder with tiller steering and with no rocker they are rocket fast. Check www.blackburnchallenge.com They are a terrible boat to turn. To do a buoy turn I had to use the rudder and grip the paddle by the tip of the blade. If turning left then plant your left knee in the thigh brace. Then drag your left blade as you lean to theright while you lean forward and use a flat stroke and finish by leaning back to get a long wide arc. Some boats are not made to turn well. Also you might be faster if you trim your glider by moving seat forward an inch to lenghten the waterline by not allowing nose to rise up out of water until you are cutting water with wider part of boat.
Okay…which way do you lean???
– Last Updated: May-04-04 5:59 AM EST –
I have been following this post. I am pretty new to kayaking too.
I have seen contradictory posts on this thread concerning which way to lean when turning using a sweep stroke.
Do you lean on the side you paddle is sweeping on, or do you lean to the side opposite of where your paddle is? I though you leaned on the same side as your paddle.
Also, here is another question about turning.....what about on whitewater boats? I know that sea kayaks require a good lean to turn in conjunction with a sweep. I have a Dagger Crossover (upgrading to a realy sea kayak) and recently bought a Dagger AQII (older whitewater boat to use for rivers)
I took it out on the lake to practice turns. I had been used to making turns with a solid lean and sweep on the Crossover----when I did this with the AQII I went over hard....after my wet experience I tried turning with less lean (duh) and found that that boat required no lean at all to turn quickly, or just a slight weight transfer to one side. Is this the correct method for turning a white water kayak??? Is is generally true that the hard lean when turning is for sea kayaks and not really for the shorter and more maneuverable WW Boats?
thanks
Matt
Leaning/Edging Differences
most folks in touring boats will edge on the outside, meaning the edge on the left side to turn to the right. Edging shortens water line and makes turing a longer boat easier. Also when you sweeping on the outside of the turn, there is a natural bracing component.
WW boats are made to turn/spin quick anyway given short length combined with rocker. A sweep stroke will turn you quickly without any leaning/edging. A good bow draw can easily turn the boat 90 degree without doing anything else. So why edge/lean? Because when you enter into a current, whether peeling in or out of an eddy, the current can grab your chines and flip the boat over. So you edge to the inside of the turn, like on a bike. The inside edge/lean is always on the “downstream flow.” This lifts the upstream edge and allows the water to flow under the chines and hull rather than catch your edge and flip you over. Generally manuevering in the middle of the river, going with the current, you don’t need worry to much about edging one way or another. It’s going into differential currents (like an eddy) or ferrying across the river that you need to think a bit about edging.
BTW, seakayakers often flip in rivers when they first get on just because they are so used to leaning on the outside edge. I learned that the hard way myself. From white water, I learned edging on the inside of turn can be useful in certain situations, like tidal currents and strong winds, and with individual boats like my SOF.
sing
Or as one instructor said:
“Show your butt to the current”
And don’t forget that in an eddy the current is going upstream…
Does this make sense?
If you are turning with a stroke that accelerates the boat, lean outside.
If you are turning with a stroke that slows you down, lean inside.
sorry but I have to contradict
flatpick and kudzu the whole front part of the sweep stroke is useless until you get past the cockpit. You could essentially start at your hip and move back, because it is the aft part of the kayak that swings around.
Sweep power
I’m sure it feels that way to you, but next time you’re out try a few sweeps from bow to midway back only. The first half should have more power. Simple biomechanics.
The aft half has more finesse maybe, but I suspect it only feels like that’s where your getting the turning force because of a bit of response lag from the hull.
Go 360 degrees with only sweep strokes. Try it from hip back to stern only only - then try again bow to hip only. If you give it and honest go - I think you’ll come around in fewer strokes the second time. Then do it one more time with full sweeps emphasisong the front half for power and aft half for more directional control.
Any differernce? Could just be me/my boat. Maybe I extend forward more on the first half and you lean back more on the second half. Your boat and rolling skills favor that more than my higher coaming and currently zero roll ability.
Maybe Generally, But…
“If you are turning with a stroke that accelerates the boat, lean outside.
If you are turning with a stroke that slows you down, lean inside.”
When you initiate a turn with a sweep, you should “edge” OR “lean” to the outside (an acceleration stroke). BUT, when you follow it with a bow rudder (a deceleration stroke), you should maintain that “edge” to the outside.
Note: if you initiated the turn with a “lean”, you’ll have to come slightly back to an “edge”.
Chuck
N.B.: What’s the difference between an “edge” and a “lean”? Edging is the act of shifting your weight so that the boat tilts to one side. But…you keep your center of gravity (C.G.) “inside the cockpit.” Leaning is the act of tilting the boat to one side, where your C.G. is “outside the cockpit”, and you are actually “leaning” on your paddle. It provides this support as long as it’s moving through the sweep, at a flattened angle.
Edge and lean
Yeah, you’re right, I wasn’t clear. I should have said “edge outside” and “lean inside”.
Confusing
It gets kind of confusing when trying to describe some of these strokes without a picture or diagram. And when we start to talk about extended paddle techniques, it changes some of the things we’ve learned.
Case in point: After attending one of Wayne Horodowichs classes, in Charleston, SC (April 2003), I learned to lean (bracing on my paddle) into my sweep strokes (standard & extended paddle positions). When I put those techniques to use the next day, in another class, I got ‘corrected’ for doing it all wrong! They just wanted me to “edge”. My “leaning” was considered ‘poor form’ and dangerous. Go figure!
Now, I do both, depending on where I am and what I’m trying to do. In fact, my favorite fun turn is an extended-paddle, high-brace turn. It gets the boat way over & turns very sharp. It also pretty much bleeds off all headway. Just the ticket for arriving on station.
Chuck
turn, turn, turn
– Last Updated: May-04-04 8:52 PM EST –
There is a season.
constructively all I can say is that all the instructors I've worked with feel that the sweep is at its most powerful as you reach the stern because the bow is pretty well locked in. Really the turning, on long narrow sea kayaks, comes from unlocking the stern by edging and allowing it to skid out. The sweep at the bow is mainly for building up momentum as your approach your stern. Edging to the inside of the turn but sweeping to the outside going in a 360 should demonstrate this. I notice that I get the most bang for my buck on the latter half of the sweep as I rotate my torso towards the tail.
For reference watch Nigel Foster's Video Vol 3 Directional Control in the section about sweep strokes. He does a nice little demo of sweep strokes and reiterates the point about where the sweep is most effective. Now that doesn't make it gospel, but I find it works for me.
Some of you may want to do most of your sweeping ahead of the cockpit, and if you feel it works for you, go ahead.
“Beyond the Cockpit” video
featuring Derek Hutchinson is produced by Wayne Harodowich’s University of Sea Kayaking company.
www.useakayak.org
It demonstrates how to make turns using edging and leaning techniques. It is only $29.95 and is an excellent visual learning tool for how to improve your confidence in making turns by leaning and/or edging to the same side as your sweep turns.
All the usual disclaimers but this DVD and all the others in his “series” are excellent! Take a look.
Jeff
And therin lies your error
– Last Updated: May-05-04 12:28 AM EST –
You are assuming the forward part of the sweep affects the bow and the aft half of the stroke affects the stern.
In reality, both affect the whole boat. The boat is rigid not flexible! You contact points with the boat are where the turning force is transmitted to the boat - and those are the same throughout the sweep. Whatever end is looser (most often stern) comes about more with a sweep, and does so throughout the whole sweep.
Torque is torque, force is force. More force can be generated up front. That means more turning force that can be transmitted to the hull. Factor that in and re-think it.
Your instructors can no doubt paddle well, but that doesn't automatically mean they fully understand what goes on with the boat during those strokes. Flatpick teaches and designs, and you can bet he understands it from both perspectives.