Two edged sword: will you grow into it?

Hmm - confidence v. skills
Sometimes they collide in a boat… my first sea kayak was a CD Squall, which gave me tons of confidence in paddling because its secondary stability and match to my predelictions was so close. It took just a few paddles to relax and trust the boat. And on that basis it was a great boat to start learning skills in.



However, after spending a HUGE amount of time trying to get a reliable roll in the Squall (it was getting pretty silly), we happened into a moment when we could purchase our first glass boats. I got an Explorer LV (also upgraded the paddle to an Epic near the same time) and my roll percentage went from less than 50% to two/thirds of the time within the first sessions. In fact I was up before I even realized it the very first time I tried in the LV. And other off-balance stuff was similarly improved, though it was only this last season that we really went at it seriously.



So - while my Squall gave me huge confidence in paddling in conditions, it was not so supportive at more advanced skills. In fact my confidence at rolling was pretty beat by the time I started in with the LV - but luckily I was too damned pig-headed to stop trying. I am pretty sure the LV would have seemed much more daunting at first than the Squall for regular paddling though. While it is the good old Explorer hull, the lowered deck and really good contact leave you in very good contact and feel of the water surface.



Dunno - like Sing said way up there, there is a sweet spot for everyone. I am not sure I quite hit it in my progression, but I can’t think of two better boats for me to have gone thru than those either.

Schooling boats?
Who told you that. Doubt Dennis did. He designed the boats to be excellent rough sea craft for the waters where he lives. He did so! He, as you know also happens to run a school…maybe that’s where you made that leap?



Stable and capable are NOT beginner traits in a boat. People seem to equate tippy with advanced, and I think that’s innaccurate. My old Nordkapp was tippy relative to a Romany, but the Romany is a more capable boat in a tidal rapid, rock garden etc. Nordkapp is a better cruising boat.



My HP surf kayak is extremely stable. Boats designed for speed tend to be more tippy due to the decreased wetted surface of a more rounded cross section. Surf ski’s etc. I think people should buy a craft that suits their needs and paddling style, not based on perceived macho factor of a given boat. They are all a compromise, and that is an unavoidable fact. Take a dozen expert ocean paddlers to a rock garden play spot, or big tidal race and give them a choice of many boats. My bet is they’d all choose the playful, more stable boats for that type of paddling. Why? Cuz they are more fun in those conditions. You wouldn’t buy a stiff GS race ski for Wyoming powder days? Just some thinking…


So true…

– Last Updated: Dec-17-05 12:04 PM EST –

It hit me too the first time I had to land on an unfamiliar beach in rough conditions into a small slot. You have to know the conditions of your LZ too. Yup lots of similarities. Nothing like the feeling of total commitment when you launch a glider though, or when you're pointing straight up and leaning in for a wingover, there's no turning back. I've been paddling for about 5 years and still really enjoy it.

This post made me think about glider pilots getting high performance gliders before they are ready. It's something that will ruin or injure pilots faster than anything.

Interesting …
Wonder what percentage of first time boat buyers upgrade because skills increase and they want to push higher limits vs. have a boat they are content to paddle and see no need to try anything different.



For those that do hone skills I’ll bet nearly everyone one started with a more forgiving boat and moved on to a more challenging boat.



Renting different boats before purchasing is often touted here. I agree that renting is a good way to test a few boats, but I think it can be taken too far. It becomes expensive to rent all season and it is a hassel to have to pick up and drop off boats. Would you do more paddling if you just bought yourself a boat, even if it wasn’t perfect for you? The idea here is to get on the water, for whatever reason suits you (e.g. exercise, relaxation, social atmosphere, thrill, etc.)



I can only relate my own experience as one relatively new to kayaks (I have paddled canoes for more than 30 years). One of the boats I currently own was also among the first I test paddled. I did not feel comfortable in this boat when I first paddled it and ended up choosing a shorter, wider and more stable boat. But about nine months later, when the manufacturer offered to replace my boat because of defects, I was ready to move to a longer, narrower more challenging boat, so I jumped at the opportunity. I’m very glad I did as I can do everything I did in the first boat and I have leared a bunch of stuff in the new boat. I will also say that my original intention was to buy a recreational kayak with a large open cockpit. I disliked the ones I test paddled vs. the touring/sea kayaks and I knew immediately I did not want to start with a recreational kayak. Had I never paddled before this might have all been different.



I guess my point is - just do it. If you really enjoy the sport you’re going to find other boats you like as you skills increase and it is likely you will add to your fleet or trade up. There are a lot of great used boats on the market. Hmmm…what next?

~1rowboat1duckboat3canoes3kayaks

“push higher limits” & "challenging"
Those terms may resonate with some - but I think they can also miss the point for many. Could come off sounding a bit adrenaline junkie oriented and that’s not what I see among most swaps/upgrades - particularly in sea kayaks (WW and Surf maybe). Could be the way those who stay with boat one see it, maybe, but not how I see it.



I might substitute “offer a greater range of performance” & “rewarding” as my reasons for changing boats.



My 1st, and IK116, offered neither - though it was certainly more than challenging enough when I had it on a large standing wave at the mouth of an inlet at outgoing tide!

I know it’s hard for some to believe
…but some people really don’t give a r@t’s @ss whether they become skilled, either quickly or slowly. This becomes readily apparent when paddling with them more than a couple of times.



Some people think that if they have an expensive kayak, that’s enough. Others may have wide, short rec kayaks that they bought expressly for the purpose of NOT having to worry about learning much in the way of new skills.



Either way can work in a limited sense, but obviously if you don’t agree with the attitudes above, there will be an uneasy mix, at least in anything but the easiest, calmest paddling.



I am one of those who started with a rec kayak and became unsatisfied with it after finding out that I really did enjoy paddling. Face it–rec kayaks provide a cheap, easily transported, easily resold way of testing the waters. It’s not just a matter of comfort sitting in the kayak, though that is one of its advantages. But before the dissatisfaction reared its head, I got my money’s worth in water time and have no regrets. I think I would have done fine starting with a narrower, longer kayak, too, but that’s not the way it happened. I really don’t think that taking the other route would have changed the result, which is that I love paddling and am always trying to learn more.

Yes, these are better terms …
to describe what I was trying to say. Pushing limits and challenging could be as simple as keeping up (in a rec kayak) with a group paddling sea/touring boats on a leisurly 8-10 mile day trip.

~wetzool

my thought
I was not ready to go from glider to t-bolt but am really glad i did. Glider had 2 in thick pad to raise me up and was a little unstable but the t-bolt is wicked fast and tippy and I love it and now selling it to buy t-rex. The key for me is sheltered water for the boat for awhile and still never been .5 mile from shore with t-bolt. The3 eft or glider are my big water boats. The biggest mistake I see is buying a huge heavy boat that cannot be caRRIED BY ONE PERSON. sOME SHOULKD BUY A SOLO CANOE. because they are so light and versatile.

Growing into it
The paddlers that I’ve seen progress the fastest are white water paddlers.



Other than that, the rare seakayakers, who buy real seakayaks first, learn skills in the first year that many never learn.

First year I worshipped the gulfstream

– Last Updated: Dec-21-05 10:42 AM EST –

second year I paddled an explorer on flat water and said " I love this boat and I'll have one in a couple of years when I learn to handle it." six months later I was paddling one (bought used could not resist) in a situation I could not believe I could handle. fell in love and never looked back.

Do you have a sense of humor. do you mind the knocks on the way of progress. Will your friends put up with helping you get back on your boat. Do you want to learn to roll. How important is speed to you.

A boat which is is challenging to me at 240 pounds would be far less so at 180.

From the NDK site
"Soon after this Nigel wished to set up his own kayak school, but was put off by the cost of buying a fleet of boats for the centre. Using his practical experience gained whilst on the sea in demanding conditions, both of the limitations of other brands and some new key ideas, and also helped by a friend who was very skilful with the design as well as paddling ability, Nigel built his own fleet of kayaks and the first Anglesey Sea and Surf Centre was started.



These very first kayaks were built to withstand the constant use and abuse by groups at the centre…"

Not Surprised…

– Last Updated: Dec-18-05 6:20 AM EST –

Again, paddlers are not a homogenuous group. We represent a spectrum of the human personality types.

There is no problem per se with the different approaches. It's only an interpersonal problem when one or the other gets preachy to someone else with a different approach. It gets to be a real problem when some want to legislate everyone else to their point of view.

The best thing for a paddler to do, provided they are more the social type, is to find a group that shares the same philosophy and outlook about their paddling goals. If not the social type, than perhaps bit the bullet and take lessons with an outfitter than give what you need for what you want to do. There you can grow at a speed you want, with folks who take the same approach. If you don't fit a group, just move on. It's no biggie.

I keep thinking this is "recreation", about having fun, albeit with some inherent dangers. It's up to each to decide how they want to handle the risk through the factors of skills, physical endurance, gear and judgement (about the other factors vs the conditions). If it's not fun, then simply don't do it with the group or the gear/venue that aren't providing you the fun factor.

sing

PS. I was thinking how appropos it is to use the "Two Edge Sword" metaphor in the thread title. Double edged weapons are indeed among the hardest to master. Deadly to the person wielding it if they don't have what it takes to even try to master it. Deadly to everyone else if the holder of the sword is indeed a skilled apprentice or master. The majority of folks are much better off with a kitchen knife. That's just fact.

probably gonna catch hell for this
But personally, I’ve adopted the old Clint Eastwood line “Man needs to know his limitations”

I really believe we talk ourselves into exceeding limitations we feel comfortable with simply because “everyone else is doing it”.

You may have something there!

– Last Updated: Dec-18-05 12:19 PM EST –

To be honest, we bought the Impex 16' boats we now have for some good, and not so good reasons:
1. We both wanted the "glide" that the longer boats have.
2. We wanted boats that would be fast enough so that we wouldn't be a burden if we tried to go somewhere with a group.
3. My wife didn't care for the non-glossy appearance of the rotomolded boats.
At ages 56 and 58 respectively, it is not likely that we will ever do more than flat water paddling. And, risk aversion has NOTHING to do with it. We have both been skydivers, rode our own motorcycles ,and I have raced just about everything with wheels on it at one time or another, in addition to flying hang gliders and getting my pilot's license.
I'll confess that I bristled a bit when a couple of posters seemed to imply that having problems catching on to the kayaking thing was due to a lack of intestinal fortitude!
We will continue to work on building our skills, having taken our first formal instruction at Sweetwater Kayaks. We can do self and assisted rescues ,as well as the basic strokes, so we're not absolute beginners any more.
Should we happen to appear at one of your organized events, we won't be upset if you "blow our doors off": we're just there to smell the roses, dip the lilys, and pet the mantatees! :-)
Bob

What does your age have to do with it?
As I indicated in my previous post I don’t try to pursuade people one way or the other about paddling style or preferences. They are after all just that – preferences, and I respect that. But I do react to the implication in your post that age is a determinant of how you paddle.

I could say I agree
But what is your point exactly?



That novices are co-erced into buying skinny boats? Should students stand up for themselves?

Or that instructors are bullying students?



Or is it both?



If so was this post just a way for you to point out that you weren’t one of these instructors? If so great, but so what.



Did someone co-erce or bully you? If so share the specifics of the story rather than pendantically typing a parable.


Age as a factor?
Beats me, but ya gotta blame SOMETHING for the fact that I don’t feel compelled to prove that I can still do all the things I did when I was 25!

( And before I broke my back on a bad skydive landing, developed the “family curse”/arthritis, etc.)

I know that there are folks like Dr. Bob who have better bodies in their 70’s than many folks do in their 30’s, but I didn’t happen to come from that end of the gene pool!

I eat reasonable, excercise every day, don’t smoke or drink, and im pretty good general shape, actually MUCH better than the average of the guys I work with, most of whom are MUCH younger than I.

That my mention of age as a factor in recreation style preferences would cause you to “react” puzzles me.

The only person I have to impress is ME, and some days that doesn’t take much! :slight_smile:

To use the popular phrase from another board,

" Hakuna matata!"

Bob

The point
Seems either the rest of us got the point pretty clearly, or that we ALL got the wrong point.



The point was simple. Instructor could, with the best intention, gave the wrong advice!



By ‘encouraging’ the student to get into boats that are ‘challenging’ for them, it could actually inhibit student’s growth if the student lacks the physical ability to grow as fast, or lacks the mental state of ‘embracing’ the challenge.



So his point, as I understand it, is for the instructor to first understand the student BEFORE pushing student into boats they may or may not ‘grow into’!



Is it so difficult to understand?

:o)
"The majority of folks are much better off with a kitchen knife. "



That’s a good one! LOL



If we are talking about cutting meat, or even an intruder, indeed a kitchen knife would be much better tool. On the other hand, there’re those who study the sword for the challenge.



It’s a funny coincidence I just finished watching a program about ‘kendo’, the Japanese art of sword. The irony is, today’s Kendo pratitioners will see no realistic chance of EVER cutting down an opponant in an actual sword fight. Most study the art to achieve certain mental state of calm, self-disipline and whatever.



I suspect this board attracts a disproportionally large representation of kayakers with similar attitude: those learn all the kayaking skill for the challenge (‘because it’s there’). It’s important for us to NOT trying to impose our preference onto other folks. In other words, try NOT to persuade the mom and dad who’re looking for a kitchen knife into buying a sword! ;o)


a different point
Actually the post that I read was an account of personal growth, the realization that anyone that makes recommendations relative to paddlers growing into a boat needs to consider the potential for a significant downside to such casual comments. I agree that such comments can have seriously adverse effects and should not be made casually.



Let’s keep in mind here that Evan is sharing a personal realization, specifically that some of his recommendations may not have worked out the way he had hoped despite his intentions. We and Evan would do well to remember that our personal realizations and perspectives are not necessarily universal. I remember having conversations with a developing instructor recently, where I was asked about boats that I thought would be good for him. I remembered seeing this guy previously in very tender boats, so tender that I thought they inhibited the progression of his personal skills. I suggested that he try a more forgiving boat so that he could learn to relax and not be constantly preoccupied with staying upright.



It is unfortunate that Evan presented his post as a warning for all instructors as if all instructors suffered from the same weakness. My choice to study teaching & coaching was driven by my desire to avoid similarly well-intentioned but uninformed advise to other paddlers. It’s good (and personally validating) to see another paddler learning this valuable lesson.



New instructors make lots of mistakes, there is much to learn. This is one reason why both the ACA and the BCU take instructor training so seriously. There is a difference between being a good paddler and being a good teacher. Being one does not necessarily mean you can make the transition to being the other.


So his point, as I understand it, is for the instructor to first

understand the student BEFORE pushing student into boats

they may or may not ‘grow into’!



Is it so difficult to understand?



An instructor should understand, in great depth, that which he hopes to teach to others, how to read student’s verbal and non-verbal communications, the nature of learning and the mechanism by which different people learn, ways to identify and manage the differences between what a student says they want vs what their needs are vs what they are capable of accomplishing. We ask much of our educators and we underestimate the complexity of that which they do. This post is about one small aspect of the responsibility that instructors face every day.



Cheers