Giving advice is not giving direction
I see no problem with instructors sharing what has worked for them. To not do so is equally wrong.
The problem is students who follow such suggestions (often just shared comments/experiences) blindly - and putting too much stock in what others offer for advice and don’t bother to create their own context in which to evaluate things. Guru seekers. The ones who will start a sentence with “So-and-so says…”. Nigelophytes. Certain club/association memb… OK - I won’t go that far. Lots of good there too.
But then, I have never been much of a follower - though I’ll gladly adopt what works from others example (and pass on my own odds and ends). So many people to learn things from. Just maybe not quite such specific things as “The boat” or “The gear/outfitting” or “The technique” for you.
Excellent post!
Usually, there's no problem giving advice to people who's mental and physical ability are more or less inline. The difficulty arise when some people who push themselve without sucess because they're just NOT fast learners. Or those who ARE quick learner but don't feel they want to push themselves.
Take white water, when a student flips repeatedly and got intimidated, it's obvious he needs a more forgiving boat AND run easier river for a while. While a student who cruise down a class III on first try, instinctively brace when needed and ask to learn playboat moves, he could get into a more aggressive boat and "grow with it"! Those are the easier cases.
What if a student flips repeatedly in class II's yet wants to attempt the optional class III+ rapid? He has the mental fortitude to push forward at the challenge. But putting this student in an aggressive boat might actually inhibits his progress. However mentally strong he is, his body reflex did not match up with his mental ability. A tippy boat might slow down his learning to move with the water.
There're also student who actually learns pretty fast, but doesn't feel like pushing themselve even then? Should they be adviced to get into a more aggressive boat or a forgiving one so they could enjoy the river?
I'm no instructor. But I happen upon a multi-day instruction class when I met a family that comprise all 4 of the above character! The mother was timid and learned slow. And the son was a natural and LOVE whitewater on first sight! So the instructor adviced accordingly for those two.
It's also obvious the father had all the mental aptitude but not the physical ability while the young daughter was a quick learner though shown little interst in adopting whitewatering as a life-long passion! I could see the instructor was a bit unsure what to advice those two...
Not a warning folks!
Jed your response is indeed my intention, but just for clarity sake, did not intend even unintentionally that dealers, instructors deliberately do this or all have promoted this. And thanks for clarifying for me that this is intended as self growth, and shared in that light, not in any way a soap box!
After 4 eye surgeries I basically really just like to learn and hold each day as precious that I may continue to enjoy the beauty of seeing, of light, of color, and all that it affords including the beautiful world that makes up nature and kayaking in it.
My friends family and sudents all say the best thing I do is attune myself to them. I have not the world's broadest kayak experiences, nor the most expect skills. But I do seem to have led a life devoted to helping people from a place of equality. Although I can sometimes sound like a know it all, somehow I overcome that first son thing and people find my instructing them converging on what they actually need in that moment.
That is why I ask this kind of question. None other.
All sorts of boats…
All sorts of boats, all sorts of people.
We probably should destinguish between -buying- a boat to grow-into versus what boat to use in a paddling class. There's a difference in recommending a boat to buy versus what boat to take a class in. "Growing into" implies something that takes a fair amount of time and effort. You don't "grow into" anything over the course of a class.
One has to match the advice to the person. Few people have or take the time to do this. People also have different goals. So it's quite possible that a boat "one can grow into" doesn't fit the kind of paddling a person wants to do.
Anyway, if you concider a reasonably athletic person interested in open water kayaking, boats like the Romany and Explorer (and there are many like them) are good boats to start out in because, after a little bit of time, they are not intimidating and they have a lot of "grow into" room. These kind of boats can, and do, serve a lifetime of paddling for even quite accomplished paddlers.
I believe that sea kayaks much more "advanced" (I guess this means "tippy") than Romany-like boats are not "advanced" because they are "better" but that they support a different style or approach to paddling that appeals to a smaller number of people.
People are put into "beginner" boats because it's easy to do and, if they buy another boat in a short amount of time, then at least it helps the economy!
Beginner boats are not bad: they suit many people's skills and interests (for these people, such a boat are all they ever need). But, if a person is interested in open water, long distance paddling and has basic athletic skills and interests, then I'd put them in a different boat (like a Romany).
Keep in mind that beginner boats are also intended to be a step towards more "advanced" boats. Because of their lower cost, it's a bit easier to "get into" the sport than it would be by getting a more-expensive "advanced" boat. The economics of this "fail" if the person quickly out-grows the beginner boat.
A boat that requires a lot of attention is not appropriate in a class because that attention should be focused on what the class is teaching. Still, a "recreational" kayak is not appropriate for a -sea- kayaking class because these boats are meant to be paddled differently than a sea kayak (that edging thing again). It's possible (I suppose) that a Romany is "too much" boat for a never-ever sea kayaker but I suspect that most people will not have much with this boat after a short amount of time (30min).
As an aside, I have run across many instructors and guides who, even outside of classes, paddle Romany/Explorer-type boats.
First boat
My wife and I purposely chose boats we would have to grow into when we got our first kayaks last spring. We had both been out in rental 14" rec boats that were very stable, a couple of times each. I went w/ a Chatham 18 and she went with the Chatham 16, and it felt pretty scary on that demo day we first tried them out. I don’t regret the choice for a moment. After 6 monthes of paddling, starting out as absolute novices, we’re both very comfortable in our boats now, we have some good braces and strokes now, and we were starting to work on rolling by the end of our first season. It has to depend on the individual, I think we are people who like to be pushed a little it helps us to push ourselves. I am certain we wouldn’t have gotten as far as we have as quickly in some really stable rec boats, but that’s us. We did an all day clinic down in Rhode Island in August and found out just how far we’d come, we’ve gone from beginner to bona fide novice! Most people know how far they can comfortably push themselves, and some people enjoy a little bit of fear. It’s seems like a totally individual sort of decision.
The purpose of “recreational” boats
The basic purpose of "recreational" boats is as either a boat for someone not interested in sea kayak (nothing wrong with that) or as a step towards sea kayaking. There are also many boats in between "recreational" boats and "true" sea kayaks.
How long was your demo? Was it on flat water (like a lake)? How many hours on flat water did it take to feel somewhat confortable in your Chathams?
The Chatham is another boat that is fine for a "new" -sea- kayaker but would be hard to grow out of. It is quite likely you will have no compelling reason to buy another boat!
There are three things that keep novices from buying "true" sea kayaks: 1) room to move around in, 2) the size of the cockpit opening, and 3)stability. These things become less of an issue with even a little experience (like a demo or tour in a "real" sea kayak) for the majority of people interested in sea kayaking. There are a few people (and I mean a few) where a transitional boat (or a recreational boat) is the best place to start.
A new paddler, in any boat, should practice a wet exist under supervision (first without a skirt) very, very soon when starting. The purpose of this is to establish the "risk" of capsizing (typically, just getting wet).
I like your post NJ
There are many kayaks out there that would serve a reasonably athletic beginner all the way to advanced. Heck, look at the This is the Sea vids and what are most of those good paddlers paddling? Explorers, Romany, Avocet, and the like. Why? Cuz their great boats. Experts focus more on handling and rough sea ability, so in many cases they’ll choose a boat with more stability so as to have more flotation on edge to free the ends, or throw against. NDK boats are examples of such designs.
Some boats that are tippier do require that the paddler be better skilled to drive them, but that does not mean they are more advanced craft.
from a difrent veiw
The first kayak i baught was a waldon. the thing was tippy and hard to keep on track. had a new kayak in less than two months and barly used the waldon.until i sold it to upgrade kayaks agian. i paddled the same modal waldon two years ago and had a blast. now i can aclimate pretty quick in a lot of modals. but i needed something friendler to get me going and and develop my skills. but have seen people do well in ther first time in certian boats, that i would have struggled in.
but i find that a easer kayak is good to learn in.
because it seems that the people i try to help on trips learn proper technic quicker (if at all) when they are not struglling.
Boats
It was an all day demo, but we spent a couple hours in the Chatham’s. Also spent time in some Romany’s, Valley’s, and Current Designs. Did my first wet exit from a valley, unscheduled. It was on the Narraganstt Bay on a calm day. Never “needing to get another boat” is a legitimate concern, I know so many paddlers who are looking for another boat after a year or two. We didn’t want to spend the time or money to do it twice. If you know the kind of paddling you’re going to do, it makes sense to get a boat that will work for that kind of paddling. We’re less than a quarter mile from Quincy Bay, we knew that was where we were paddling, we knew the Harbor Islands would be our regular destination, so that’s how we picked our boats. We stayed in close to shore our first couple of trips on the harbor, and practiced wet exits and rescues early in the season. They felt comfortable by our third outing, a little chop felt like fun by our fourth outing.
It sometimes seems like dealers sell people boats they know they’ll want to replace in a year, to be conservative and safe, which is good. But you have to wonder if selling another boat in a year doesn’t have anything to do with it. Of course, if they’re just going to let the boats hang in the garage it’s all the boat they’ll ever need. If you’re serious enough to drop a grand or two on a boat, you should be pretty serious. A couple of the places we looked tried that reasoning, “You may not really like it, so it’s smart to get a more inexpensive boat to start with and get another when you’re ready.” If you have given kayaking a try, and you’re serious about getting out there, (much more important than what boat you choose,) I would just suggest that thinking a little longer term will probably end up saving you some money in the long run, and you may learn a little faster.
pretty amazed
Wow, your posts really do show us again the diversity of needs that exists for all levels of paddlers. Maybe the best thing to remember is that these issues do matter and to stay away from prejudging, to provide active process for the paddler to find that sweet place of comfort and challenge where balanced skill sets are learned.
try-buy
Evan:
An excellent topic, that I recently experienced in a different sport: cross-country skiing. I had skied for years in a reasonably-wide in-track touring ski when a retailer sold me on an extremely skinny long racing type ski. I had only mentioned my goal was increased fitness. I soon developed a poor kick-glide technique on this new ski, to compensate for my uncomfortable sense and fear on hills. I eventually sought an instructor’s help to unlearn my self-learned bad technique.
My thought on your post, shared by many posters here and fellow paddlers is this . . . no matter what a retailer/instructor/group leader suggests as best boat, one needs to take total control by test paddling and renting various models to find one that is hopefully a balance between comfort and room to grow skills. That is a clear advantage of an organized club or group of paddlers, where boats can be swapped. It is much more difficult to find the ideal boat when doing it alone, in a land-locked retail store.
does not mean they are more advanced
Tom Bergh refers to such boats as “more demanding.” That maybe the best term I’ve heard for equally capable boats that require more attention, focus, or skill.
Tom Bergh
is a very decent fellow. Yeah, I can relate to that perspective. For example, a Legend will be more demanding than an Explorer, and would be my choice for a long distance touring boat. If I were doing a coastal trip with lots of surf, rock gardening etc., I’d choose the Explorer. Both excellent craft. What I’m trying to convey here, rather poorly I might add, is that a demanding boat may not necesarily be the best boat, even for an advanced paddler. People who paddle a lot in many areas usually own several boats. I don’t think of boats as beginner or advanced (with the obvious exception of rec boats), just different compromises. You love the Aquanaut, which is a fine boat. Some could call that a de-tuned beginner boat aimed at the North American market. I’ve heard that, but don’t agree. It’s a boat designed to track well, offer great stability and big sea ability, while being able to fit larger folk and haul gear. I think it exemplifies a craft that can work for a beginner all the way to expert. For most, a better choice than the more demanding Nordkapp I think. Again just my thinking…no right or wrong here.
Horses for courses…
Having been out on the water a number of times now, in different locations and conditions, my wife and I have a pretty good idea of what sort of paddling we enjoy and the types we don’t like as well.
So, though we will do just fine with our 16’ “sea kayaks”, they are more than a little overkill for what we really like to do.
We can do rescues, some bracing, and basic strokes. I will probably learn to roll, not out of a perceived necessity, but just to DO it! 
We just have over twice as much invested in boats that are somewhat more subject to damage from environmental conditions than the lesser expensive ones that WOULD have done us just fine.
So, let this stand as one more example of how not being totally sure of what you want to do, and the advice of well-meaning instructors received before getting the equipment can lead to a less than optimal choice.
Bob
Yup, well put
Nice.
I would agree that an Aquanaut is not a "detuned beginner boat". There are many experts who would choose to paddle this boat (as they would and have chosen the Explorer, a similar boat).
Note that the Aquanaut is a longer Avocet. The Argonaut (now the Aquanaut HV) is a Aquanaut with more volume in the cockpit.
I'm assuming that "aimed at the North American market" is "code" for "fat Americans". The Argonaut (Aquanaut HV) would support this argument (the "straight" Aquanaut would not).
Though, actually, I believe kayak manufacturers are waking up to building variations on a basic boat model for -both- ends of the size range of humans (smaller and larger). I'm not sure if this is "targeting" at all.
your sword
May I just say that as a novice-beginner to kayaking, I started out on a demo at Lake George last summer just to see what the hype was about concerning these short in the water boats. I tried several and still did not feel comfortable with any I tried. Some felt too tippy, some too tight, but nothing was just right. Since I did not feel comfortable in any of the boats, The teacher-trainer whatever told me I may never be comfortable in a kayak. Had I believed him instead of going elsewhere I never would have had the opportunity to be a part of a sport I might never have tried.
I moved on to another vendor and found a boat that was just right. A rec boat, One I knew I would use, have fun and join in with other friends. I used in for the season, fell in love with the sport and realized I would like to try something a little more challenging and opened my horizons to many more places I could paddle. I researched and read all your threads, reviews etc and Ive ordered a QCC400x but but have no intentiosn of giving up the rec as I want to introduce my friends to what I found.
I guess my point is -your first experience and comfort level with whatever boat you get, makes the difference in the boat spending too much time in the garage out of frustration. I guess having lower expectations to start is not always bad. I paddled every chance I got and am looking forward to my newborn in April.
CJdi
Another Beginer’s thoughts
My wife got me going on the idea of kayaking over 10 years ago. We had paddled recreational tandem SOTs and Sinks every now and then. I decided that we should learn better paddling skills and rescue techniques, so we took a couple of courses this past June. The wife was nervous about that, and going out into the ocean. But now she is a better paddler with better balance and strokes than me.
We took the 4 hour basic strokes and assisted rescue class, and I’m in a WS Tempest. I do fine but it feels a little tippy to me, as it is my first time ever in a sea/touring kayak. So for the next class, which will be in the open ocean, I ask for a Perception Carolina which is a bit wider. The guy in the shop, he’s not going to be the instructor, goes NO NO NO, you don’t want that boat. You want the Perception Eclipse. The Carolina is no good because of this that and the other. Uhh, OK if you say so.
Well, I spent more time in the water than in the Kayak while we were out in the sea. I flipped out 3 times. Which took a great deal of the instructor’s time to fish me out, but we had it down pat at the end. So my classmates got very little of the instructor’s time for pointers with their stroke. They were quite nice about it though, and two of the three other guys in the class mentioned they had the same experience in an Eclipse. I didn’t even try the self rescue back in the harbor, just beached it and rested. Of course the wife is now can self rescue with ease. She also said the 1-2 foot ocean swells were fun.
The shop did give me a couple hours of rental time, since I had called. I suggested they do same for my class mates, but who knows? They didn’t seam too open to the idea.
Now we have gotten out kayaking since then, but the tippyness still makes me nervous. Though I did get a sense of the Eskia’s secondary stability after being in it for an hour.
So my point. Is to second the thoughts that one should listen to the costumer, look closely at their experience level, and direct them carefully.
I would also suggest to the shops, that if a customer has a particularly bad experience in one kayak during a class, that you offer the class again to them, in a different boat. It seams boats handle very differently, based on small differences in shape or paddler. You got to build that relationship with the customer to make the boat sale. If they aren’t comfortable in a kayak, they sure aren’t going to buy one.
Explorer - Aquanaut
My exchange with Tom was comparing the Explorer and Aquanaut. He noted that the Aquanaut was as capable as the Explorer, but more demanding.
The Aquanaut is lower volume than an Explorer with lighter initial (primary) stability. This lighter initial is related to its better glide and tracking. It has been noted as a boat for “adventuresome intermediate to advanced paddlers” - Sea Kayaker.
I think there are three basic considerations in a boat - capability, personality, and fit. Each of us wants a boat that is capable in the conditions we will paddle that fits us well. The Explorer and Aquanaut are examples of equally capable boats that fit about the same size paddlers. The preference for one over the other comes done to which personality (combination of traits in behavior)a paddler finds most desirable.
The Argonaut (renamed Aquanaut HV)is wider and higher decked than an Aquanaut.
Explorer - Aquanaut
The Aquanaut has lower primary stability than the Explorer. And the Avocet has lower primary stability than the Romany.
As far as I can tell, the volumes of the boat pairs are comparable. That is, the Aquanaut doesn't have significantly lower volume that the Explorer.
The Explorer may have more volume in the cockpit area (since the hull cross section is more square) but the Explorer has less volume in the ends (since the stern and bow are more "pinched" compared to the Aquanaut).
The Aquanaut may be more "demanding" than an Explorer but not drastically so. They are similar boats (but not the same).
More time on flat water?
The "Eclipse" isn't concidered that "tippy" for a sea kayak. It's quite possible that the Tempest has lower primary stability than the Eclipse.
I suspect that you would have benefited with more time on flat water before attempting the open water course. Looking at it another way, if you could not do the class in an Eclipse, then, maybe, you were not ready for the class.
Sea kayaks seem "tippy" to people because they don't yet have the habit of "loose hips". Acquiring this habit takes time (more time for some, less time for others).
Learning how to sea kayak (ie, handle a "tippy" boat) takes some time and effort (more for some, less for others).