Then You’ll Never Paddle With Kids
In Hawaii. Kids here think it’s ridiculous to wear them in a “dinky” kayak after surfing all day without them in the big surf a quarter mile out to sea. Those things get in the way when you try to swim or go diving. They ruin tan lines too.
ps: I wear one though: just in case of a heart attack and end up in the water.
do kids in hawaii lead trips?
Then I’m not sure I’d be concerned about that. I don’t blame anyone who is putting themselves in any role of responsibility for others when they require that everyone wear a PFD.
Yes you can think for yourself. No you can’t always save yourself.
I’m with you Bob
– Last Updated: Jan-29-16 5:18 PM EST –
"You want ME to lead and be responsible for YOU when WE'RE out on the water? Then you're going to have to follow through on that trust. If you don't want to, you have other options."
Thin the herd straight off. If I'm leading a trip, the guy who wants to "make up his own mind like an adult" can be the first one to beg off.
If we're talking about people just paddling among friends it's a bit different. But I didn't get the feeling that this was what the OP was describing.
I see a lot of these types of people
who are in these sorts of tragedies are in my age group or 10 years older or younger, (mature adult) and they are actually very experienced, they probably are even technically “better” than I am, make their boats go faster, and I will say they very likely swim better in nice conditions (water not at a temperature where you end up going hypothermic quickly.)
But they didn’t have a parent or step parent or adult relative impress upon them at a young age what really cold water actually does to you, or they’d be scared out of their wits to go out in it, without either a dry suit or a wet suit.
And I notice about these incidents that sometimes they are in at least a wetsuit, but my theory is that they overheated on the way out, dehydrated a bit, then stopped for lunch, cooled down, then when they accidentally got immersed in the ice water on the way back, they were just too fatigued, and suffered muscle cramps to be able to swim/pull themselves up. That poor guy last year, an instructor for emergency techs, who went out to the tip of Tomales Bay and didn’t come back with his friend, this guy is just way too experienced and fit otherwise for there to be any other explanation. The weather out here on the West coast has been much more like the mid west the past 4-5 years, it can get VERY hot for a short time around mid day, and then BOOM violent spring- type sudden cold weather.
I am not saying they should have checked the weather forecast with more care, obviously, but that, even so, the weather seems to have wider temperature swings than one can adapt to as easily.
Case in point- last weekend I prepared to do something on land, by the time I had changed into the outfit and went out to load the car, the temperature must have dropped 10 degrees. Okay. I went in and changed again, and brought more layers. Drove 20 minutes south. Cold front came through, put on more layers before starting. Suddenly it clouded up and now there is a serious head wind coming from an unusual direction for that time of day. Went from a single layer tee shirt at lunch to 3 layers of warmer, wind resistant, and was still a little chilled before I warmed up. I brought along one more layer, just in case. Good thing I was on land - and not in a hurry to leave. I don’t want to be 5 miles from my vehicle and get into trouble. And I am a fanatic about checking the weather, radar and satellite feeds before going out, and I’m still thinking gee, why is this suddenly looking stormy here. Can I withstand a cold rain shower, if it comes to that, yes.
Just because you haven’t seen it before, doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
Turns out that weekend they had tornado warnings to the north of where we live. Some spotters got photos of hail and funnels. Northern CA tornadoes again. In January. Good grief.
Hey they are hawaiians …
I see their point if they are surfers, they know how to handle themselves and judge the risk.
When we were in Hawaii surfing over an outer reef a young lady in a surf ski came paddling by, she was maybe 18, and was hauling a$$, I mean she was really moving, smiled at us as she went by, and since she knew the break paddled right between huge sets into the protected water like she was riding her bike home up her driveway.
A little too punitive for me
I’m more of a common adventure kind of guy. I think you can accomplish the same result by making sure that everyone understands the scope of the trip and the skills required. If the scope and the skills don’t match there are two options – change the trip so they do (I think that is what the OP should do), or don’t participate on the trip if it is above your skill level. I find that most people are pretty good about staying within their skill level if they understand the risks. Once the group is formed and the trip begins, everyone works together to make sure it is successful. That is not to say that trips don’t have leaders, or that more experienced paddlers don’t take a more active role in leading the trip. It just means that no one is personally responsible for anyone but themselves.
Shortening the trip…
Shortening the trip length will make absolutely no difference in participants skill levels. I don’t understand what is punitive about having trip members demonstrate their ability to recover from a capsize, then get themselves & their boat back to shore. It could be turned into a learning experience for everyone if handled correctly; especially the less skilled paddlers. For those in leadership positions, or those that will act as safety boaters; they are more aware of participants skills.
Driver’s licenses, motorcycle certifications, paddling certifications, lifeguard & swiftwater certifications
are not punitive. They show that those certified have some degree of expertise; which in all cases, is need to know information.
BOB
To each is own
– Last Updated: Jan-30-16 10:29 AM EST –
It just seems to be a little extreme to be doing wet exits for a flatwater trip with a church group. Much easier to structure the trip so that it is easy enough for even newbie paddlers. If on that trip someone wants to practice wet exits that is fine.
Drivers licenses and certifications are different, and some clubs do have a process for certifying members. Personally, I don't want to be the one giving skill tests and deciding who is qualified to go on a trip. That is much more responsibility than I am willing to assume.
Only If They Got a Car With Roof Racks
And can do an 8 mile offshore downwind surf run under an hour. The leash is the preferred safety equipment.
Generally speaking…
Generally speaking I agree; the trip needs to be structured, and the venue suitable for the newbies.
You are NOT giving them a skills test.
You are NOT taking them through a certification process.
You are NOT deciding who goes or doesn’t.
What you ARE doing is making participants aware of what will occur & what will be required of them; if they capsize their boat. That is possible I suppose.
Seems like basic, need to know information to me.
But being a church group; perhaps God will be running safety, retrieving boats & paddlers?
:^)
BOB
Amen !
That is my kind of group !
jackL
Amen again !
jack L
With all due respect…
– Last Updated: Jan-30-16 7:22 PM EST –
There are groups where a majority will admit to the risks or understand their limitations. This might be a group which will listen to the OPer's concerns, and the report we are reading makes it sound worse than it is.
But I have encountered wildly under-prepared paddlers who steadfastly refuse to admit to any such concerns - they are brick heads and proud of it. I will not paddle with them because they make me nuts. If this group includes enough of those paddlers, there is no way the OPer can implement any of the above very sane suggestions because they will outvote he and his wife.
Perhaps that is not what this group is about and they can be worked with. But if they lay on the brick head side of the spectrum, the OPer is not going to be able to turn this around.
Maybe I’m lucky
But I don’t tend to run into a lot of “brick heads”, and I have never seen a well-planned trip get hijacked mid-stream. I suppose it could happen, but it is not something I worry about. Maybe it is more of an issue for sea kayakers – on a river your options are pretty limited.
We can come up with lots of problem scenarios, but I don’t think there is any reason that the OP can’t organize a trip that is appropriate for a church group of 15-20 people with mixed skills. Obviously, it shouldn’t be an open water crossing in bad weather. It also shouldn’t be a 20-mile trip down an isolated river, but an easy 3-4 mile trip on a nearby river or lake should be doable even for beginners. I’d do it in the summer when the weather is warm. If it’s a lake, I’d do it on a calm day and keep people close to shore. I’d explain to everyone the scope of the trip and the skills required before we head out so they understand the trip and can make their own decision on whether to participate. If after all that someone decides to leave the group mid-stream, that is up to them. Ultimately, if I didn’t like the group, or if the group wanted to do a trip that I didn’t feel I could run safely, I wouldn’t do it.
One thing I do tend to run into is overly authoritative trip leaders. Once I figure out who they are, I stay away from those trips like the plague.
If they listen
– Last Updated: Jan-31-16 4:02 PM EST –
I am more than happy to go out with newbies who are responsive to learning, and did until the last few years where my availability for paddling was challenged. Most of that time is local and not with sea kayakers, even if they are in long boats. It is with people who are on local rivers or small lakes with rec and transition boats.
Happily in the most local paddles the risks are limited and the fatal stories few. But if you want to move north a smidge to Lake George, a bigger lake, the situation changes. I and/or my husband have been out there with people I would not paddle with again, for example the guy who couldn't swim. And did occasionally capsize. Or the guy who invented his own version of how to do rescues that involved inflating a raft and getting into the water to swim himself.
I have seen the same in Maine on the ocean bays, people out there with more enthusiasm than ability to handle a problem. In singles and in groups.
I really don't think there is one environment that makes for paddlers more willing to consider safety than another. What does seem to happen is that people who really resist the idea find each other. If you have not encountered this consider yourself lucky. I have.
right
– Last Updated: Jan-31-16 10:51 AM EST –
this is the type of thing I was talking about.
I paddled on a group day trip that included a guy who had a rec kayak not built for distance, but he was a burly alpha and thought he could power his way along with us. The trip leader tried her best to dissuade him, but he made a big stink and tried to show us all how fast he was by arm-paddling the first 1/4 mile to put us in his wake.
The leader had asked me and another paddler to help keep an eye on the group and keep them tight. Eventually the conditions built enough to slow this guy down and we ended up having to tow him on the way back. Which wouldn't have been too terrible except the guy couldn't handle being towed in conditions and puked everywhere.
being adviser, overseer can be enjoyable
but you need a lot of support. I’m fortunate in that I ww boat with a lot of quality individuals (wvwa members)who show up when we are introducing newbies to the sport.
Bigger groups can be split into pods (subgroups) with experienced paddlers leading each group. Keep the ratios close, definately not 10 to 1, ideally 1:1! Keep the the paddling limited to a few hours, miles. Designate lead and sweep boats for each pod. Practice whatever skills are necessary prior to setting out. (for ww that includes a wet exit). Do consider emergency access.
You don’t have to be an ACA member to view trip and clinic guidelines on their website- good stuff if you’r e contemplating taking groups of newbies out.
Sometimes it does feel like a weight, usually right before the actual event, but the thank yous afterward are sincere and gratifying. More importantly, when I go out to paddle, like yesterday- with three former beginner clinic students, I know they are well trained and have my back because I’ve been paddling/teaching them for the past few years. It’s great to go out with folks who watch out for each other.
I’ll bet he learned a lesson
and I’ll bet you probably won’t have to worry about seeing him again 
At some point everyone is a newbie again
Two weeks ago it was me with a group of much more skilled boaters. They were nice enough to wait while I portaged a particular tough rapid, only to have to help me recover my boat when I swam in the last drop. Sh*t happens. It is nice to know that the group has your back.
we can all learn new things
– Last Updated: Feb-02-16 12:07 PM EST –
but my days of "climbing the ladder" of difficulty are over. I'm more interested in exploring "new to me" environments and learning different paddling styles and helping others.
People who have your back aren't always the most skilled folks, although skill does help. There are other things to look for as well. I general I like folks who are passionate about boating.
It can be as simple as paddling with folks who check up on each other by asking "how's your day going?" and who keep an eye on each other, and eddy out frequently or take rest breaks, or carry an extra granola bar in their pfd, or bring along an extra water bottle.
Folks who never look over their shoulders and who are only focused on what they are doing aren't much help if someone else needs assistance. You can definitely teach and cultivate people to look after each other.
Despite competition, there's a strong sense of community and cooperation among the different rafting companies on the New and Gauley rivers, especially when the ***t hits the fan. Even when I was video boating (paddling ahead solo of the commercial rafting trips) I felt connected and played a role, often relaying information up and down the river, collecting paddles, yelling directions to swimmers etc. I made a real effort to talk to raft guides from other companies so I would be less likely to get plowed over in a class IV or V rapid. If they know ya they might be less likely to run over you. When I stopped working on the river the thing I missed the most was that sense that everybody was looking out for each other. I've tried to carry that into private trips.
You're not likely to effective assisting others if your paddling in survival mode yourself. In that case, you want to surround yourself with stronger paddlers and tell them your struggling so they can keep an eye on you....but in the end you also need to be responsible for yourself.
It's only a good river trip if everybody makes it safely to the take out...all this from someone who never carries a first aid kit...I did finally start carrying a spare paddle again...that's progress!
Yes, I've taken church groups, boy scouts, college kids, retirees, national science campers and obese relatives, EPA experts, and even a WV Rivers Coalition Sugar Daddy on class III water-most of whom had no prior experience. I've had lots of help, done some prep, and with some folks used forgiving boats like duckies or even a raft, and I've had bail out options for folks- like climbing into a raft instead of a kayak, or taking off 1/2 down a run.
The vast majority of folks have a good time- a few folks have struggled. I try to look at those struggling situations and think what can I do differently?
Lots of folks have said "don't do it" I'm sayin' "do it" but put yourself in a situation (with help) where you can be successful. It can be stressful but also rewarding.
I have lots of folks I like to paddle with because I've cultivated that situation. That's the payoff. I even connected with a couple of pnetters- virtual world meets real world, what a concept!