Veterans....being one or how to deal with one

Paddlers' Place
#21

Good post.
There was really no point in my OP other than to give some insight to a small group of people…of a small group of people. It would make a bit more sense, have a bit more direction and meaning if I didn’t edit it, but I took out some personal, specific things.

So I’d say the intent is just like you say, just get to know people, do things with people. Always fun to meet new people and get them to smile. I do that even in grocery stores, parking lots, etc. And paddling would be a lot more meaningful.

#22

No prob in any sense. We each have our own likes, goals, interests, etc. Reading all of what you type, you do seem like a very deep and focused person. So you will say you aren’t for everybody, well, everybody aint for you either.

I like to teach people how to shoot and how to do construction. But when I’m out in the rivers and woods, in the lakes, I like to be by myself. So what the person giving is about is as important as what the person receiving is wanting. Sometimes that agrees, sometimes not. No prob either way.

I initially was sent to get together with this person who did horses as that’s my background. Well, I was just beginning my realization of maybe having to accept I was a bit messed up…but that person had their own agenda going and needed me. I am very good with horses and she needed me for her programs. I was quickly very overwhelmed, got up and left.

They did admit I was supposed to get something out of that program too, but I seriously withdrew. They leaving me messages to come back as they needed help…but they were sooooo off.
I needed help more than they wanted or could help me.

So the programs need to be a match to the person, whatever that person is, what their needs are. Some people who run programs, it’s more about them than those they have a desire to aid.

People need to respect the boundaries of those they wish to share their activities with. If it’s a ptsd person, they really need to respect any “no” or form of I don’t want to do that. If they were choked/strangled/submerged related, going into a kayak could be a huge step where a canoe would not be as they can fall out of a canoe, get away so to speak. When I worked with rape victims, it would take a while to get to actual self defense and a firearm. They can have that block.

So like the original post…just some insights that may or may not be there.

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#23

My mission was exposing my grandchildren to kayaking. The oldest is now in college. Although she enjoys kayaking, she’s the piddle and pause type. Two others dont have the interest outside of it being a novelty. The most promising are my oldest daughter’s two who have the apptitude and skill to accurately mimic technique. They live on the water with access to the bay. I’ve posted pictures in the past of them on the water. While comparing early videos to current of the youngest paddling, I was shocked by the progress she made in one season. She has an uncanny ability to observe and assimilate details.

Unfortunately, her primary interest is volleyball, where she excells as a freshman playing with seniors. I bought two boats that she only used twice before she grew out of them. The most frustrating part of exposing anyone to kayaking is overcoming a lack of motivation to learn skills and techniques. Worse yet is seeing the potential in someone who isn’t ready or willing to investing the time to progress. I’ve learned to mind my own business. If people want an opportunity, they’ll take it. There’s more to life than paddling.

#24

@castoff :thinking: Hmmm. I’m having a moment of self-reflection. Which group(s) does the notorious Mid & Upstate South Cack Paddlers fit into?

Mentally challenged - definitely check, homeless - check, hippie - check, angry (but not an x wife… yet) - check

#25

( @string need not reply. Thank you. :blush: )

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#26

The important thing is we enjoy each other’s company! We even tolerate Tony!! :laughing: That’s formerlytdaniel for those that might not know.

Our sailing club sponsors two free fishing tournaments with boats and fishing guides. One for veterans in general, and one for disabled veterans.

#27

I’ve been fortunate to spend time with kids on the water. Kinda cool to watch them grow up. I love that description “piddle and pause” type. I definitely have that element in my own paddling. You could use the piddlin’ and pausin’ time for conversation with your granddaughter.

As far as performance, form, and standards you’ll probably be inwardly wincing, kinda like fishing but the purpose really isn’t to catch fish.

When they hit the teen years I would make it a peer trip and I laughed a lot on those adventures. Teenagers in tiny sevylor duckies in the heart of the nrg at munchin’ water levels. If you could get by with just 3 swims you were having a good day. My son still loves a good raft hit. My daughter enjoys taking my grandson on the paddleboard on Summersville lake but she is also really into bouldering. They put a thick pad down and climb around on a rock.

Doug, you and sawgrass are the “it’s right over there” type. Truth is, I’m a member as well. There’s also “the just around the bend type”, “the according to the map, we are already there and don’t realize it” type and the “we might want to consider turning around” (giving up on the objective) type. That’s what makes you special and why I enjoy paddlin’ with you . We specialize in taking bad unrealistic ideas from an old duck hunter’s map and making into a great day. Probably not the day we imagined but always memorable. Sawgrass can boogie in that kayak when she’s not using her paddle as a machete. So she’s also a “haul as#” type. We’re strictly “piddle-paddle-pause-paddle- pause” types. Don’t fret. I used to be “put the candy wrappers on the trees” (no map) type.

Its possible to evolve or regress as a paddling partner. if you do end up getting totally lost and end turning into bigfoot then I feel I’m only partially responsible. I don’t fully endorse using candy wrappers as navigational aids.

I haven’t really looked at the calendar but maybe an early november trip, before hunting season? I like that time of year for Sparkleberry. Everything I do is open invitation. Perhaps we can find some other “fools”, oops typo, I mean “souls” to join us. I can invite Dale, somebody that actually remembers the swamp, and we can follow. Or we can just use sawgrass as a probe. It’s all good. We got options.

okay so the thread is morphing. We could do it on veterans day. I’ve got to bring this thread back to the OP somehow. Canoer60 you interested in paddling a swamp over veterans day? Sparkleberry is in SC and a power company creation. Before that, it was a pig farm. Its not everday that you get to paddle in a place that used to be a pigfarm? You’ve probably never been invited to paddle a former pig farm before but you and jyak and all the other pnetters out there who want to get a paddle in before winter could rendezvous at Sparkleberry. Poinset state park is right down the road (campground, cabins) and hotels are about a half hour away. So there are lodging options.

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#28

The greatest impediment to kayaking is improper paddling technique. I consider myself to be a slow learner, but I eventually improve because I’m analytical. My grandaughter Emma is extremely observant and picks up quickly. Hana started out very strong and efficient. Emma was only 11 when she started, but she picked up quickly, even though she only went out about twice each season. Starting out at a few miles per trip, she added 2 miles each time. I was a bit fearful near the entrance to the Bay when large boats zipped past. She rode a large wake, and I looked over to see she had a wide grin, then said, “That was fun, will any more come by?”

Both Hana and Emma are junior naturalist. Before I could direct their attention to a distant bird, Hana said, “Look, theres a Golden Eagle.” She was correct as it flew closer. It was one I had seen several times in the area. When we watched them at my house, they would bring a pair of toy plastic binoculars and catalogue the birds in my yard. So I bought all.my grandchildren binoculars. My other daughter’s husband is an avid bird watcher and her two kids are observant as well, unfortunately, they aren’t interested in the water.

Both Hana and Emma are disciplined enough to remain on station in a group, while my experience with others is an unwillinness to stay in an organized group. A rabble has no place on the water. A disorganized group of boats is a danger, especially if the cluster blocks a deeper channel that power boats require to avoid shallows, obstacles and seaweed where the sport fishing boats frequent. In open water, speed boats create a hazard trying to figure out the intentions of disorganized joy riders. Most recreational paddlers are found around a half mile from the launch site. When I take anyone into sea lanes, they either comply or the next timevthey can rent a boat and go play. I don’t have the time for willy nilly joy rides. When I go out with Hana and Emma, we combine observation with efficient paddling. Jabbering scares off the wildlife, and paddling efficiency results in a quieter passage. Listening is as important as observation. When out in open water, it’s hard to communicate without yelling, and the paddlers on the extreme edge can’t hear as much. I’d rather get back and find a waterfront restaurant and talk there. My goal with them is to cross the Bay, a 10.5 mile trip over then back. That requires a single focus. One thing halting their progress is volleyball, which is a priority for both of them.

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#29

Tony I was planning on an early spring Swamp trip when the tupelo and cypress start greening up. It’s beautiful then.

Early November we have undefined plans for doing the Savanah River from Augusta down to Savanah. However, if not we might be good for Lake Jocassee or perhaps the coast with your new sea kayak. We could camp at Buck Hall or maybe do a night on Capers Island and paddle out to Bull Island. If you are up to doing an 11 mile paddle out to the cape and spending a couple of nights that too is a possiblity, but I would have to get a $100 annual launch sticker for that.

#30

It’s a shame that I still haven’t paddled Sparkleberry Swamp since I only live a few hours away.

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#31

I’ve paddled Sparkleberry a couple of times. Just another swamp but I grew up on and along the Edisto so it’s special to me. Lots of swamp.

#32

Conversations find their own bearings

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#33

Sometimes it happens. So on the water I paddle, on the forum, I find the time to talk.

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#34

On Thursdays I go to breakfast with a group of men my age. One guy was in the canine corps in Viet Nam. He still has suicidal thoughts after all of these years. For decades that VA told him to just straighten up and forget about it.

Now they are giving him some counseling. It has taken years before this guy was willing to share his experiences.

War is Hell, even after the fighting stops.

#35

I’m glad he’s getting some help if that’s what he wants/needs.
For a long time, the VA just drugged people. A nurse once told a Bud of mine they were “dodo” pills…they made the vet dumb as a dodo,thus compliant.

then more recently, they just gave xanax type of meds to troubled vets. those are just a diffrent form of dodo pills. A lot of drug/people problems were happening around some VAs because of this, from scripts flooding the markets to suicide increase. our civvie “leaders” were aware of this, but did nothing as they weren’t interested until bad press started coming out.

I was in the denver va for 2wks and learned about the codes called to the prohibited floor above. It was special access, but nurses ran to the response…a vet in their psych floor in crisis. He wasn’t like that when he went in. Sh*t makes me very sad. I’ve had nurse response called on me 3x at the local VA. I’d like to think my early episodes were the impetus behind them organizing such a thing as after my episodes, when I came back, I wanted to work w/them to help people like me, help them better and more safely handle the event. I think I can claim the same at another VA I’d have issues at. Last few times, I could hear the code being called and that never happened before.

Is there any help? Remember, vets are mostly normal, boring people. Some have ptsd and are OK as it’s just PTS, not the D. The D comes in after years of dysfunction. People just don’t get ptsd. It’s a lifestyle that happens over time as a result of the initial stress(es).

There are differen forms/levels of ptsd also. Speaking for myself, I have the mild to severe. In the severe forms, one disassociates. They are back there, at the event. That’s what I work w/the PD/security/staff with as that’s what I have. I educate them on it to make the vet and all others safe. No harm, no foul.

IMO, disassociative ptsd never goes away. There is no remedy for it. Counselors want you to go back and fully experience the event. WTF? What that does is nothing but re-traumatize the person. Other than a lobotomy or drugged into zombiedom, there is no remedy for it. One just learns to live w/it and avoid the triggers.

About 6 mos ago I was in a vetrinary office waiting room. There were multiple dogs in pain, howling. It got worse and worse for me as that quickly morphed into women/children screaming in my head. I made an ass out of myself as I covered my ears and ran out of the building. Before that, I ran out of a community pool due to starting to be in an episode. It also happens in stores.

I went back after those and educated them on what happened and asked if they had any questions. Education.

The tiny tiny pop of people like me aren’t mental, weird or anything else. No fault of our own, we just have a damaged mind. And we deal with that. We learn to live w/it as we have no choice. There is no fixing it. Lesser PTSDs/PTS can be alleviated. Severe diagnosed ones, IMHO, no.

It’s something we’ll die with. Mine happened many decades ago. Speaking of suicidal ideations, I always wear 2 gummy wristbands. It’s the Vet Crisis line ones. I wear them to remind myself how far I’ve come, that I’m still here, and that yes, I am handcuffed by what happened. I’m taking all of that to the grave with me. I have people there, waiting for me. They will help me.

So everyone can now hopefully see why I’m so HUGE on educating people on ptsd. Help people with it and help people understand it who don’t have it but could deal w/someone who does have it.

And it’s not just vets who have it. Long time former GF of mine had it pretty bad, dissociative kind. She was brutally raped. People can get it. From that point on, it’s all about deal with it and people who have it.

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#36

I guess it’s hard for medical people to understand without having experienced it. Without first hand knowledge, it has to be difficult to treat. Maybe that is where you can offer the greatest service.

#37

I teach emotionally challenged kids to ride horses. They have all kinds of issues and horses can teach them things we can’t. It is a powerful process and it adds a lot of meaning to my life as a retired person. It is an all volunteer program. We do not charge for participation. We are well funded by the community. There is a very successful mustang program at the local prison.

I know for a fact that his process works with adults with PTSD. We have proposed the idea of taking on some vets in the program. We have not made that happen yet, because we are pretty busy with kids.

Horses are honest. They are prey animals are very intuitive and emotional beings. We communicate with them with body language. It is like learning Spanish. They respond to kindness. It took me awhile to figure that out. Mules taught me that 100 times. In the 1970s horses were handled differently with more force and coercion. Now we make it easy for them to do the right thing.

If things aren’t going well with the horses you are working with look in the mirror. They know all about how to be horses. We just need to learn to communicate with them.

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#38

experience as in having it?
my experience is healthcare people don’t know how to handle it and it makes sense as they aren’t trained for it. So I give them “the talk” before we do anything, informed them of my issues and if I start to have an episode, basically, don’t touch me, just stand back and take the no harm, no foul approach. Also don’t try to restrict/stop someone having an episode. If they want to walk out, let them go. If they run (which is often), just let them go.

Some medical conditions (head injuries/concussions) people can be combative so they are trained in that. w ptsd, you’re looking at a normal, OK person so they won’t expect it and depending on the field, won’t deal with people like that.

a few months ago I had an episode in a dentists office after a root canal. They had no reason to expect a reaction in someone like I had. So I talked to them about it afterwards and next time I went in there, the other doc wanted to find out more about it, so I talked with them about it.

I made a few flyers on ptsd, so I think I’ll look at them again and visit some places this winter to give them out.

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#39

Good job on working with people like that. A lot of times, people just need to be shown there are good people in the world and people who care about them. That’s a big realization for some of them.

All things communicate w/each other via body language, but humans often have that put on the back burner. What I’ve liked about horses is alluding to what you say, they are honest. But also…you can’t lie to them. They don’t understand your line of whatever you’re selling. And they are big…and you can’t push them around. You have to come to an agreement with them. And that takes place through actions, not words. They respond to you, and you respond to them, rinse, lather and repeat.

Insurance requires background paperwork and some ptsd people will baulk at that. I did. I got stuck on the box about medical condition. The owner saw I was staring at it, so he came over and told me to put ptsd in it. I was shocked. Shocked that I had it. Shocked that he knew. And didn’t want anyone else to know I had ptsd. I couldn’t do it. It was way too early in my process, so I left. What made it worse is he kept contacting me, telling me how much they needed me there, etc. That solidified my never going to go back there.

People need to know about horses if they are going to be staff/vols there. This facility had a gaited horse, a walking horse. They were using that for disabled kids. That’s the complete wrong horse for that. They are long strided horses, so in order to get the horse to walk slow enough to be with the person walking with it, it will shorten up it’s stride and this will lead them to kick the heels of their front feet with their back. Walkers oversride, others kick out their rears so won’t do that. Non gaited horses don’t have to worry about that as they take smaller steps. You can tell by looking at the hoofprints as they move. If the rear is behind the front at a slow walk, they’ll work. if the rear drops in front of the front, it won’t.

TBI can have balance/vertigo issues.

You can control a getting out of control horse by turning their nose sharply back towards their body…as you get into that space between their nose and body…and make them go in a very small, tight circle. A horse will go where its nose goes. I’ve grabbed a horse’s lower jaw with my hand and lead them around like that.
But I assume all of your horses are dead broke, so cocktail conversation.

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#40

Canoer60,
Working with horses has unintended consequences, and nearly all of them are positive.
We have lesson horses that are pretty broke and we have some that are younger and suitable only for experienced kids.

I have an 11 yo girl and a 13 yo that can change gaits, sit a trot, open gates, spin, sidepass, and lope like they have done it all their lives. It has taken some time to get there. We are somewhere between a horse therapy group and riding academy. My kids and I are very close. They write me letters and I put them on the refrigerator much like if I were their grandfather. I am close with their parents and grandparents. It is their best hour of the week.

I have seen horse therapy work with adult men in prison. . It works for vets. I hope to work with some adults soon.

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