Waxing kayak for speed & glide

Advice
#61

I took a 13 mile out an back on my local waveless river today. My turnaround was probably 6 feet higher than my starting point, but Geo Tracker says the altitude difference (which presumably is the difference between it’s lowest and highest GPS reading) is 96 feet. It also says I did a vertical ascent of 514 feet, meaning my spikes show I went up 514 and down 514. Google Earth shows 320 foot gain/loss with the same dataset, so they are applying a different smoothing algorithm than Geo Tracker did.

@jyak, export a Geo Tracker trip to kml and open it in Google Earth. Select Edit : Show Elevation Profile. You can see real height gain but all those little elevation spikes and dips are noise. The pink is elevation, purple is speed.

Google earth speed profile
Google earth speed profile1974×496 172 KB

In my case I had to deal with downed trees, shallows and a lunch stop so the speed dips aren’t all artifacts.

GPS-driven surveying equipment require you to stay put for a bit so they can average out multiple readings, and by doing so they can get very accurate. For example a 20 minute wait gives +/- 1mm accuracy. No device can average readings for a moving object so each reading can’t be very accurate, but as pointed out being off by 20 feet over 20 miles is fine compared to being off by 20 feet from one reading to the next.

2 Likes
#62

GPS readings are never accurate for elevations. I read because it’s just different satellite’s tracking you at different angle. It’s laughable at times what it says.

1 Like
#63

Many people look for speed in all the wrong places. A long, skinny, light boat with a rounded, smooth hull is a good start. Then it comes down to technique, strength and fitness of the paddler, learning how to use a wing paddle, and in most cases, dropping at least 10-30 pounds around the waistline. That last one is the most overlooked way to go faster in your existing kayak…get your body lighter.

3 Likes
#64

You need everything looking for speed. Never used a wing but from what I have read it’s worth 3% in speed increase. Wing paddle won’t contribute to glide anyway. Wide boats are just much more inefficient. Not many want all out race hulls they’re just one purpose type boats with limited use possibilities.

Thin is where it’s at for the hull and your body weight. Pick the boat or boats that fit your needs the best when you average all the different uses. Second choice is get a few.

It is nice to delay a stroke and not feel like you dropped a sea anchor. I guess when many say glide they are also including effort just to cruise.

#65

Kevberg, I understand and agree. The slower refresh rate gives a more accurate reading, but it clips the speed fluctuations, so either option is a compromise. The elevation is all over the place, so I never looked at it; however, you make me wonder if there is some value to it. Since sea level is constant and doesn’t vary in my area more than 1.2 ft, it may give some clue about error. (I looked at the elevation, and PaddleDog52 explained why the reading could be erratic).

I understand devices have limitations. They’re still valuable, even if the accuracy is just relative. One aspect I’m confident with is the start and stop time (its just a simple stop watch function), the distance (I found that it’s as accurate as plotting manually on a chart), and average speed (its just a calculator averaging the time that it took to cover a given distance). Covering the same course 20 times, the distance varies between 8.36 and 8.60 miles, depending on whether I beach the boat or stand off due to heavy waves, or make wider turns to avoid shallows at low tide. I’ve never had reason to question the validity of the distance calculation based on course track. Adding or subtracting a minute or a tenth of a mile is insignificant overall. The average speed changes less than a tenth of a mph. Even a tenth of an mph is nothing to cry about. As I mentioned in the previous post, how can a device arrive at a reasonably accurate and consistent final average speed reading, if the intermediate readings are based on inaccurate input. I’m aware of unexplained fluctuations because when I try to hold speed steady, I’ll see unexpected surges or drop.

Comparing trips shows me how I improved my ability to handle conditions. They also show tighter readings where I focus. That’s where I have to collate the condition I formation to compare. The information is there. I can ignore it or use it. Don’t miss the because of the trees

#66

Measure distance using Navionics not paddling it varies when used just as a measuring tool. Crunching numbers to tenths of a mph is probably accurate.

Speed on my bike spikes all over the place also. I’ll try the car later on level road with cruise control.

#67

Good show watched it all the time

#68

The real problem is that almost all kayakers have no idea of what fast really is. The read the propaganda on their boat and it said fast; then someone like be blows by them and they think I am fast.

I went to the World Paddling Championships once and found out I am actually a turtle in the racing game.

2 Likes
#69

So what were average speeds at championships? What were the distances?

You can have a fast hull but it may not be fast with you in it. You need not be at maximum speed to enjoy a fast sea kayak.

Fast is K1 racing but it’s not practical for most sea kayakers daily usage.

People have 200 mph cars but how many go 200 mph? They still enjoy it. Some just like the hype of it.

#70

We can only use what we have. My bike is an old model that uses an induction pickup. Accuracy depends on front wheel air pressure. When it has 50 psi, it’s at least within .2 mph over a marked 40.6 mile course. That’s amazing and more than adequate, especially when considering the alternative. The icing on the cake is being able to monitor physical conditioning progress. At one point, my progess took a set, and I couldn’t get pass a certain speed. Your body reaches a point of laziness to conserve energy. You have to change your method. I learned to spin. That jumped me by .3 mph, then another and another, until my avg speeds jumped 3.4 mph. Unfortunately, life got in the way and I couldn’t or didn’t continue. The trail got too busy, then they put a 15 mph speed limit and used radar to catch violators.

That’s when I turned to the water for an outlet and paddled the first season without a GPS. Then the curiousity: How fast am I going? Whats the difference between these two boats? How far did I go? How far could I go? How much does the tide or wind slow or help my progress? How CAN I go faster! It isn’t about fun. It’s about a challenge.

Anyone reading the Changes as We Age post are misreading the replies if they think its complaining. What I read is long-time paddlers trying to hold on to their edge. That defines us. The common theme is we adapt. We fight the odds. You honed a life-long skill. You have an internal clock and intuition that helps locate you in that environment. You’ve gone to the edge and know your limit. I’m puzzled by the resistance or reluctance to use or endorse the value of the GPS, especially by seasoned paddlers. Do electronics provide a shortcut to the hard earned skills of hand navigation, dead reckoning and honing that internal rythem that defines the avid kayaker apart from the rec paddler.

I personally don’t care if another person ever takes up paddling, but if someone want to experience it, I’ll reveal every tip I know to help them reach or exceed my level. I dont consider myself to be the sharpest tack in the pack. If I help someone to the same level, they may feel obliged to help me to go further.

The accuracy of a GPS is insignificant, relative consistency is. If I’m actually moving at 4 mph, but the GPS shows 3.5 mph, I’m going to try to go 3.6 mph. If I hit 3.6 mph, I’m going for 3.7 mph. Reality means nothing. I’m fighting myself. I did three trips without the real time GPS read out on the deck (left it home, installed dead batteries, wave killed the unit when water entered the cracked rubber on/off gasket). M
Despite no readout, avg speed increased by around .1 mph on each trip.

Every trip I take, the last 2 miles is all out effort. If my avg speed is 4.5 mph, I try for 4.6 mph. Its hard to calculate how my energy reserves held up as I watch speed jumps between 3.5 to 5.2; did I overextend, did I have too much in reserve, how far can I push myself to failure. Someday, that knowledge could save my life, because I’ve been with others who have bonked with about four miles remaining. It happened to me. You don’t give up. The app graph shows how I calculated relativebto thevrest of the trip. It shows how I managed the current and wind. Look at the attachment I sent. Even without being there, the answer shows on the graph. All winter long, I can go over the experience and build on where I left off next season. I need all the help I can get.

The GPS doesn’t have to be all that accurate for me. I’m definitely not to the level of many members of the forum, but I don’t quit. I’d go out with many 80 plus forum members before going out with a 30 year old who needs to be towed back. I don’t take people who say, “Oh, kayaking sounds like fun!” I appreciate the input. It’ll help me evaluate my records and put them in perspective.

#71

To many variables kayaking, wind, waves, currents, for exact comparison to .1 mph for me. Sprints I can do in canal with no currents, waves, or wind at certain times.

Three basic hulls I use Solstice GT, Extreme / Nomad, or the Expedition I can easily feel the difference. I can see times in three hulls usually from cruising are different average speeds. It not all that exact like if was road racing my car with lap times. Multiple laps in a car can happen in minutes so wind and temps don’t change that much. Tires change as laps go by.

#72

It dont matter to me. I just use my little old tub. One post above mentioned, some things are more important than speed, such as confidence and comfort. I couldn’t have said it better. I have a faster 175, but I like the 145 best. I’m approaching the limit of my boat, technique and conditioning. Last year, trip averages improved by .1 to .3 mph per trip. This year it was around .1 mph. Toward the end of the season, improvements were under .5 mph. I’m reaching a plateau. Next year, I hope to lose about 20 lbs of bacon to see how fast a skinny old fat man can paddle. Its not over until the . . . lady with braided hair, a steel armor vest and the helmet with horn comes out on the stage to sing. Wax on . . . Wax off!

#73

Are you two finally finished with your book? The probability of it being read by anyone else is approaching nil.
However, I understand being trapped by ugly weather.
It’s going to be a long winter.

#74

People are all free to read what they want. I don’t read every thread. It only takes two to converse.

1 Like
#75

Right on PaddleDog52. I apologize for the treatise, but you ask, I reply. I read everything. EVERYTHING! Then I re-read them when old topic recycle through as suggested topics. String, it may not surprise you, but I probably learned more than anyone who read my topic. I did add a caveat: “Anyone not interested in . . . Stop reading now.”

#76

I like to see if I can wear out jyak’s finger tips. :joy:

1 Like
#77

You did.

1 Like
#78

@carldelo - Yes, the article is from a series available on thescienceofpaddling.net. I think the author does a nice job of discussing the basic concepts behind various paddling topics without overselling any conclusions.

#79

Agreed. “Fast” is relative. I remember thinking I was fast in a Necky Looksha IV. Ahhhh, live and learn.

1 Like
#80

Yes. Ability to surf or how to roll and recover is easy to assess. Racing competetively lets you know how much you improve, by measuring placement and time over a measured course against competitors. When you’re out on the water alone and you want to know if the paddle you selected is the best fit, or you want to check your fitness level, speed is just a convenient way to measure progess.