Rolling is a gateway drug to learning advanced paddling skills. You can still accrue some advanced skills without learning to roll. Nevertheless, even if your roll is inconsistent and poor, it still allows you to relax more for advancing your skills.
In my own case, I kayaked for some years with no intent to learn rolling, but eventually realized it would be useful and potentially important. Well before that I learned about self and assisted rescues. It eventually became clear that rolling and the âreentry and rollâ were superior ways to self rescue, a clear motivator.
Forums:
I belong to several forums, but only joined after I was committed to kayaking as a sport for me. So I look at the forums as a way to receive and impart information. Are forums meant to attract beginners to the sport? That doesnât seem clear to me. Using a forum is a bit like going to college â there are good teachers and bad teachers, some turn you on, some turn you off. But on the forum, you cannot always avoid those bad teachers who turn you off.
Clubs:
I joined several âkayak clubsâ over the years, now belonging to none. There was only one of those that was worthwhile and I am no longer in its vicinity. So I kayak with competent friends or solo. I have one friend with whom I routinely practice rolling, which we find fun.
While rolling is a very valuable skill, and for some types of kayaking like surf, whitewater, and a few others essential, I do not see it as essential in an introductory sea kayaking class. I consider it an advanced skill. There is plenty to learn and practice in an introductory class, plus learning about boats, paddles, wet exits, basic rescues, and safe paddling practices and equipment without jamming in rolling.
Let new paddlers practice basic strokes, bracing , and controlling the boat first. Get a bit of time in the boat, perfect the basic skills and get comfortable. Then they can go one to more advanced skills like rolling and more advanced rescues and boat handling techniques.
Everyone learns at a different speed. Too many new paddlers think one can (or should be able to) learn sea kayaking in a few on-water class sessions or worse by only watching online videos. Fundamentals can be introduced, however time spent on the water practicing and improving your personal skills in different water conditions takes time. Having the watchful eye of an instructor to suggest often subtle changes to something Iâm doing (perhaps wrong, or perhaps not really wrong but inefficiently) has been amazing in my development. I hope I continue to be able to assist my students with a few simple ideas on how to improve their paddling as my more experienced coaches and friends continue to assist me.
As for rolling, it is not part of most curriculum for new sea kayakers because there are other everyday paddling skills which are more important. Some learn to roll before ever paddling (though those folks are rare), some spend a lifetime happily paddling at their comfort level (hopefully in quiet water) and never learn a roll, many roll in a class or get self taught yet never train in rough conditions where the roll is most useful and necessary, and then there are more accomplished paddlers who are happy to roll in whatever conditions happen (that takes lots of practice in benign conditions followed by more practice in sloppy/rough conditions where 95% of paddlers never want to venture).
Find your happy paddling niche and enjoy it. As you get more comfortable and experienced with paddling, be willing to push the envelope and take some advanced/specialized paddling courses - you will know when it is time for those to happen. Enjoy the journey as you learn and progress in your paddling life.
And, only take calculated risks because you have the proper equipment and have trained for a situation or one similar (not wild haired âthat looks funâ risks on a whim) as the sea can be very unforgiving. Safety first!
I think the point that DanielD has been trying to make has less to do with specific skills that may or may not be important to all of us or the knowledge of individual members but how we sometimes talk about them, particularly with newer paddlers. Those of us who have been around here for a while do get frustrated when some of the same questions and uninformed statements are posed, sometimes repeatedly, by folks who want a specific answer that supports their paddling world view. When the person asking the questions or making the uninformed statements continues to argue about the replies we are like, âHow dare they? They donât know what they are talking about. Iâve seen people die making stupid mistakes. Iâve fished bodies out of rivers, lakes, oceans, whatever. They just started paddling. We know this stuff and that should be good enough for them to acceptâ.
I donât know what the average age is here but Iâm pretty sure that we are bordering on or smack in the middle of our senior years. From time to time we wonder what is happening to our sport, the cost of new boats, the supply and we wring our hands and ask where the new blood is that the sport needs in order to survive. Why are they taking up other activities instead of kayaking/canoing, etc⌠Must be the cost of equipment. Must be this. Must be that.
I suspect that when you were young you resented being told by well-meaning parents, bosses, teachers, law enforcement, etc. who were twice your age what you should and shouldnât be doing. âThis is dangerous. That is a bad idea. How could you think that?â
Or maybe that was just me. There just seemed to be this distain that dripped from every well-meaning word that they uttered to the point that the sound advice in their words was lost to us / me. So, we/I made our own mistakes, learned by our/my own methods and somehow managed to survive. Along the way some were lost to stupid mistakes.
Not sure if anyone noticed but DanielD has asked some thoughtful questions. He has been digging through the archives looking for good advice. In those archives he has run across plenty of advice and opinions, some presented in an informative and respectful fashion and some not-so-much. For as long as I have been on this site the idea has been floated by some that we can be an opinionated, unwelcoming and, yes, elitist lot. DanielD was just the most recent to have made that observation.
I think we can do better and for the health of the sport and our website we need younger blood. Letâs not continue to drive them away.
Let it go Daniel. Really. The people who say they donât see the elitist, I know better than you attitude, have no self awareness. Not even when they write the very words in their posts.
Thereâs an old carnival joke: Donât teach a monkey to play the accordion. It sounds bad and aggravates the monkey. I doubt youâre changing anyones mind or ability to self reflect on the tone of their posts. Take the course, meet and paddle with people who will help you along the journey. It really should be fun. Message boards are not a substitute for real face to face relationships and going outside to actually practice the thing youâre interested in.
I think most hobbies have a subset of participants who can be snobby to newbies, or anyone who doesnât do things their way. Iâve been sailing for 30+ years - talk about a group of opinionated, old fashioned PITAâs! I donât even go on any sailing forums or Facebook groups because of it. Fortunately I have not personally gotten much flack as a single female sailor (which is about as rare as a unicorn) since Iâm better at it than most of the guys. Another one you wouldnât expect is the aquarium hobby - I have met some wonderful folks there, but WOW can they be elitist when some poor person with a tank with rainbow colored gravel and plastic plants asks for some help! Granted there is the aspect of not torturing the live animals there, but there are many ways to âcorrectlyâ keep fish (or plants, or inverts) and they all donât involve super high tech setups that cost $$$. Wonderful hobby, not so wonderful people sometimes.
This has morphed. Original complaint seemed to be about rolling being closely aligned with elitism.
Subsequent has talked more about the stage at which rolling tends to be introduced. With a sprinkling of what appears to be real resentment about the proposition of considering it.
Whitewater classes add rolling in from pretty early on because being upside down without panicking is not an optional skill from the first run down a river. And assisted rescues in WW are usually not especially convenient.
Sea kayaking has the luxury of waiting in the hope that newer paddlers will limit their risks and stay in flatter versions of that environment at first. And because in those situations there are lots of other rescue options.
Greenland paddlers consider rolling to be the ultimate form of fun and will often start very early.
Rolling itself is just another thing you can do in a boat. There is no absolute reason for it to start further down the road in training or from the first, it just depends on when it may become a critical skill in that particular discipline.
It has been made far too much of a thing in some posts here.
I believe that the recent conversation was started because there was a question about which threads exhibited elitism and an old thread was pulled from the archives on request. It wasnât resurrected to talk about the pros and cons of rolling or any other skill⌠other than communication.
But there also many examples of the reverse, of âknow it allâ newbies. But, I am not going to do a search for these. Ultimately, I donât think anything posted here by âelitistsâ or ânewbiesâ are significantly impactful beyond the specific individuals who choose to engage with the substance of a topic in the âreal world.â
My longest passion and practice is in martial arts and combat sports. Going onto any MMA forum and board and youâll find some serious âelitismâ and âBSingâ going on. Whoâs ârealâ, whoâs ânotâŚ?â Who gives a $hit, unless forum denizens meet in real life. It does happen occaisonally. (I had a forum newbie showed in real life surf session gathering, even though I told him not to. We ended up having to pull his butt and boat out of the cold water.) Then the substance of discussions get worked and tested where it matters. For forum participation, you are responsible for getting what you want to put in and get out of it.
I still coach kickboxing to teens and young adults. I used to be much more fastidious about coaching and having folks in my class follow my technique instruction, as these are based on decades of sparring, real competition, and real life applications and experiences. Of couse, one can expect (most instructors/coaches will affirm) to encounter a âknow it allâ newbie here and there. In the past, I would try to talk/coach it out with them. Yeah, there is no âperfectâ defense or protection, but there are high percentage techniques, learned from experience, that minimize getting punched or kicked in the head. These days, with obstinate unlearning beginners, I let them have their way so they can learn from direct experience â which usually means getting punched or kicked in head. If the newbie leaves because of it, so be it. This sport wasnât for him/her. For those who stay, the real training begins. They are more likely to take seriously and follow instruction, train, experiment and modify accordingly. (My older son fall in this category and is a former ranked competitor and is now an MMA coach as well.) They will form their own technique preferences not because of a coachâs preference but because they now understand what what most likely works for them in an unscripted scenario/venue.
Is it elitism to let a know-it-all student get kicked in the head, so s/he can understand what you are trying to coach? Maybe. But, it matters only in the real world. Not an internet forum.
Certainly, there are newbies who may not show the willingness to learn nor listen. However, I donât see how that is relevant to @DanielD who has shown that he does listen and learn nor the topic of the thread which is about those who have experience that can be over the top in their âadviceâ. Unless, youâre trying to excuse the arrogant âelitesâ because a less knowledgeable, stubborn newbie didnât approach humbly enough.
Additionally, as a coach if you find a pupil is not following instructions well, do you berate and/or belittle them? No, because thatâs useless, and it doesnât work. Sometimes you have to warn them, coach them then yes, let them get kicked in the head.
I am saying in an internet forum, the individual is responsible for how s/he wants to participate, whether offering or receiving advice. We have different ways of communicating and receiving information. Sometimes, folks can come off being elitist or a know-it-all without intending to. The individual(s) called out can make adjustments if s/he cares to, or not (that happens too). If someone is truly an a$$, just ignore their posts and topics. No biggie. Not like they are literally in your face in the real world. There you may have some immediacy and urgency.
Seriously, if someone says, Iâm turned off and wonât stay here. I donât feel responsible for that. We all make our own decisions about staying here or not, taking advice and criticism or not. There have been times I have been off these forums, for whatever my reasons. So what? Who cares except for a few folks here who I actually interact with in the real world. They can reach out on their own.
Internet forums, for me, is just past time. I pick and choose what to interact with because itâs fun. If it ainât fun, I donât get into it. My choice alone.
This is not the point, nor is anything else you said really. The point is that there is an attitude amongst those who can roll that says new paddlers are inferior if they have not yet learned, or if they go out on the water without learning it. If those paddlers decide they donât want to learn it yet, it would be seen by some experienced paddlers as to be unthinkable.
It is the idea of a beginner doing something âunthinkableâ or seemingly idiotic to an experienced paddler and being flabbergasted at them that is at issue. @3meterswell used the word âdisdainâ when describing attitudes toward beginners, which I think is sometimes the case.
As @Bobonli said, however, I think letting it go is the most healthy option. And just avoiding those who have this attitude. I will discover the feasibility of this avoidance as I venture into the real world of kayaking in my area.
Another one you wouldnât expect is the aquarium hobby - I have met some wonderful folks there, but WOW can they be elitist when some poor person with a tank with rainbow colored gravel and plastic plants asks for some help! Granted there is the aspect of not torturing the live animals there, but there are many ways to âcorrectlyâ keep fish (or plants, or inverts) and they all donât involve super high tech setups that cost $$$. Wonderful hobby, not so wonderful people sometimes.