Weight without hatches?

Is there a logical reason for the manufactures to give weight without hatches?

To me it doesn’t make any sense, who’s ever going to use a kayak without hatches?

A reason could be if there were many after market options but, as far as I know, there isn’t any.

lightness to the absurd
nowadays, alot of paddlers are more concerned with having the lightest boat on the water than with its performance. to that end, manufacturers are only too happy to list the weight of their boats absent anything that can be removed. it’s pretty silly isn’t it. i mean, if a boat weighs 55 pounds with hatches and bungees, but only 53.3462 pounds without same … and someone actually feels that’s important … well, i think they need a good paddle.

reminds me of the weight wars that cyclists engage in. titanium chain ring bolts, titanium screws for the cycle computer and etc. silly? heck no! i’ve got titanium chain ring bolts. they cost a fortune but saved 2 tenths of an ounce. hey, it adds up! :slight_smile:

Don’t need no stinking hatches!
Just put a little cling wrap over the holes and go fast.

I have started to take my own scale with me when I look at boats.

I have seen boats in the classifieds gain ten pounds when I ask what THAT boat really weighs against what the manufacturer quotes. Especially the wooden ones.

There’s no logical reason…
…other than to deceive the public into thinking a boat is lighter than it actually is. Typically, you only see this marketing tactic used on British boats that are horrendously heavy to begin with.

not ALL brit boats …
while my NDK Explorer does have ‘heft’ it can also take a serious beating and not blink an eye. (and it has done so on several Newfoundland expeditions where landing on the rocks in crashing surf is par for the course)… and it weighs only 58.2427 pounds (with hatches).

my P&H sirius and Valley Pintail both weigh 44 pounds (the magic of kevlar) but i would be hesitant to take either of them to Newfoundland.

Good Point Dan
Curious, your 58 pound Explorer, is it glass or kevlar? And, looking at the extra 25% in weight as compared to its sisters, what makes up the differance? Does the explorer have more glass/kevlar over the entire hull and deck? Or does it use extra at stratigic/stress points?

Happy Paddling,


Weighty matters…
“Typically, you only see this marketing tactic used on British boats that are horrendously heavy to begin with.”

Which British boats manufacturer, to be specific? Valley? NDK? P&H? Any other?

58 lb. explorer
the explorer is glass. NDK boats are notoriously heavy … on purpose. according to Nigel, they’re built to take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’ and personally, i appreciate that. i don’t mind a few more pounds when it means i don’t have to baby the boat in rocky conditions. NDK does offer a kevlar layup but according to most dealers (Lamar at Barrier Island for example) they’ve not got it down to a science yet and should be avoided.

As has often been discussed here…
…weight does not equal strength or durability. I’d take a P&H or new Valley layup over the much heftier NDK layup any day. NDK still uses junk material (chopped-strand matt) in their boats, whereas the others use cloth layup. Cloth is much stronger for a given weight and absorbs less resin, further reducing the weight of the layup. It’s also more resilient, so it will flex when it takes a hit. That, combined with the fact that it spreads stresses over a larger area, means that you’re much less likely to crack or hole a cloth layup.

NDK for sure
Valley used to do this, but I don’t think they do anymore. I don’t think P&H ever did.

Do you know why…
the Tempest’s are as heavy as they are? 170 pro = 58 lb’s! That’s right up their with an Explorer.

Not just the Brits
My Necky Elaho (circa 2000) arrived weighing far more than Necky stated. It is the only non-Brit boat in the family flotilla and it weighs the most :wink:

Of course my ProLite Aquanaut weighs more than the stated weight for standard layup when I ordered the boat. I figure the extra I paid for the ‘lighter layup’ (ProLite being carbon/Kevlar/Diolen with all the usual reinforcements Valley incorporated into a boat 4 years ago) to end up with a more resiliant boat than standard.

weight and strength

– Last Updated: Jul-27-06 12:35 PM EST –

you're right in that weight doesn't necessarily equal strength and also right that NDK used 'junk' glass. i don't think they currently do. that said however, i can tell you from personal experience that the Explorer is a VERY strong boat and can definitely take a lickin' with barely more than a scratch to show for it. most of the coast of Newfoundland is very rocky and the surf is the 'pounding' variety. landing under these conditions can destroy a lesser boat. trust me on this .. been there, seen that.

Chopped mat?
I just took posession of a new Explorer and I see no evidence of “chopped mat”. In fact the interior looks a lot like the interior of Valley boats. This one is about 6-7 lbs. lighter than my older Explorer though.

Brian, WHY?
Do you keep trying to confuse people with facts?

They don’t want the truth, and won’t understand it no matter what evidence is tossed directly at them. You, as usual, are correct. Haven’t been on this site for awhile…same old stuff. I can pound my infused carbon glass boat with a hammer repeatedly. I get paid to abuse kayaks, and modern North American lay-ups from several manufacturers are not only lighter, but stronger.

Nostalgia and tradition are powerful things. In the end it doesn’t matter, as whatever one believes is fine if it makes em happy and content. BTW, owned, paddled, loved, fixed regularly, several Brit boats from NDK and Valley. Good stuff, just very basic construction. This will change…at least at Valley.

sometimes lower weight

– Last Updated: Jul-27-06 1:37 PM EST –

I was pleasantly surprised to weigh my new OI boat and find that it weighs 3 pounds less than the published weight. (with hatches and without modifications). This makes up for the initial disappointment that I wanted a Carbon-Kevlar layup vs. the fiberglass in stock model I took.

This is a first for me. Having purchased four different touring canoes in my life, everyone weighed 2%-10% more than the official weight.

Endless Debate
"crack or hole a cloth layup."

I have heard people argue this is an advantage of the NDK layup since holes are easier to repair in the field than a more generalized failure over a larger area.

I am always intrigued by these stories of brand X or Y getting wacked by rocks and not being hurt. In my world if you take a kayak into harm’s way and bang it into rocks, then it will end up with big scratches, missing chunks of gelcoat, or worse.

who does that?

Ask Flatpick, he should know
If a boat with a cloth layup weighs as much as one with a matt layup, it’s probably got more glass in it and it will be stronger. That is unless the weight is due to excessive resin in the layup. IIRC, W.S. vacuum bags their boats, so excess resin is unlikely.

The inner layer is cloth…
…which is the same thing that Valley did with their older layups that were primarily matt. Put a bright light under the thinest part of the boat and look at the fiber orientation from the inside. It should be obvious if the boat is cloth or matt.

Perhaps NDK has finally changed their layups. I haven’t seen an '06 boat, so I don’t know. It would be nice if it were true.