-- Last Updated: May-03-09 5:58 PM EST --
Which is better?
Also, I meant "Rogue".
depends
It depends on what you will be doing with it.How about some more information.
Tripping, Whitewater
I realize there is no “better”, only more suitable. I just wanted to know the differences.
I would be doing short trips of a week or so on pool and drop types of rivers with some flat water in between. I would also do day-trips in moving water. I have dedicated flat water boats, and bigger boats for long expeditions, but wanted one a bit lighter.
Since I have so many canoes already, and want a tough canoe for low water and tougher rapids, I figured these designs might be better than a Prospector. Basically, I want all the joy of a Prospector skewed a bit towards the whitewater side of things.
Thanks.
They are quite similar with the
Wenonah Rogue having about 1/2 inch more rocker, and being deeper and cheaper. I’d think about the Rogue. It is quite capable in Class III whitewater yets glides surprisingly well.
Own a Rogue
In it’s tenth year, no less.
I can only guess about the OT Appy. I am fortunate in getting to try out lots of boats (canoe and kayak), but the Appy isn’t one of them.
The Rogue particularly well suited to big water. It is deeper than most boats in it’s class, and in side by side runs in big class 3’s, the Rogue always stands out.
Also, in flat/moving water, it seems to have a bit more efficiency than some other boats I have used.
But when it dies, I will not replace it with another Rogue.
The greater depth also increases windage. If your paddling area is prone to wind (we have strong upcanyon afternoon wind on desert rivers), it can be a beast. There are some ways of maintaining control, but with the much higher bow the Rogue can be spun about facing upstream in a shockingly short time. The skill necessary to prevent this are not always apparent (hint- a stern man putting in strong reverse rudders to keep pointing downstream will make things…worse!).
The other thing I decided I don’t care for is how the bow tapers. Creates a finer entry than most other river runners I have used, likely the reason I think it has more efficient glide. But the front seat is quite far back (the boat gets too narrow for decent kneeling if the seat is farther forward), and it can make the Rogue harder to trim when used by people of significantly different weight.
Great boat, super dry, decent glide. I am just nit picky, and have fallen in love with a different boat (The Esquif Canyon, which I have had the chance to paddle loaded/unloaded in water up to Cl III). The Canyon is my next cup of tea. But I will wait until my current cup of tea is exhausted. It is all great tea.
Karl
Apppalachian and Rogue.
There just isn’t that much practical difference between an Appalachian and a Prospector 16 (I’m speaking Nova Craft here.) I prefer the construction detail and certainly the seats of the Nova Craft, but as far as on-the-water difference, there isn’t much. Both are certainly capable boats in good hands. The Rogue is an entirely different kettle of fish. I have only paddled one in moving water and class 1, so take what I say with those qualfications. I’ll agree with Otterslide that it blows around way too much when empty. I felt that it tracked poorly (pretty weird for a Wenonah!) That’s to be expected in many/most heavily rockered boats, but is usually quickly taken care of with paddle technique. I never found the stroke that would keep a Rogue consistantly going where I wanted it to go. The way it wandered around reminded me of (someone is going to hate me for this) a Coleman. Combine that with a strong quartering wind and I wanted back in the Prospector ASAP. And do give those Esquif boats a tryout, too. Quality stuff in heavy water.
Thanks
Thanks all. I had a Blue Hole Starburst, and it was just a bit too much boat. Being mostly covered in 'glass repairs, it weighed a lot. I found it didn’t solo well either.
I like Prospectors, but Novacraft’s is such a pig on flatwater, especially in the royalex lite. I might look at an Esquif Prospector as that is a nice little whitewater boat.
Thanks again.
One more for your list
At Canoecopia this year, Esquif introduced a new, smaller canoe that might fit your needs. It is the “Pocket Canyon,” a 14 1/2 foot version of their 16 1/2 foot Canyon. I have not yet paddled it, but experienced good friends have and spoke very highly of it. Not for tripping, but more for fun in patches of heavy water and the moving water in between. Paddle On!
Ouc h!
A Rogue…feeling like a Coleman!
As for tracking, IMO and the opinions of several I paddle with (2 Rogues and 2 Canyons among the eight of us), the Rogue tracks much better than the Canyon. As you mentioned, this is a feature of highly rockered boats (the Canyon is noticeably more rockered than the Rogue), but is taken care of by technique. Another group opinion, from the point of view of 3 paddlers who are petite women, is that the bow of the Canyon is much more maneuverable.
The Pocket Canyon, BTW, is an insanely fun boat. It paddles more like a day boat (think of the old Synergy), but more freeboard to carry gear. The designers think of it as a short duration tripping boat for class IV.
Another Esquif I love is the Mistral (the 16 foot version). Sort of an updated Prospector. Great in flat water, and up to II+. Insanely fun to solo. Not dry enough for big water. I find it better balanced for tracking and maneuvering than my Rogue. But you have to be good at reading and running a dry line.
Not too big, not too small
Here are two boats I have, and am looking for something in between.
Souris River Prospector - very light, very nice, I don’t want to take this on low-water thrashings, I don’t want to lend it to friends for whitewater.
Trailhead Prospector Royalex HD - very heavy, very good in all conditions - I don’t want to portage this, and don’t need the capacity for most trips I do.
So, a Wenonah, Bell, or Evergreen Prospector would be fine, but I figured if I am getting a boat that would be used exclusively where there is considerable whitewater, I might as well get something that is a bit better in whitewater. The Esquif is a candidate.
I know everyone loves the Canyon/Starburst, but I am just not a big fan. The Pocket Canyon looks like lots of fun, but might be pretty limiting in what sort of trips it could do.
Thanks again.
OK, having read your criteria…
…I’ll echo what Otterslide said and also point you to the Esquif Mistral, especially in their wonderful proprietary layup, Twin-Tex. Light and way tough and not as expensive as Kevlar (but a little more than Royalex.) See, after all these posts two of us agree on something (even when I equated his boat with a Coleman! I knew that was nasty, but I just couldn’t help myself…)
http://www.rutabaga.com/product.asp?pid=1019406
are you planning to go solo?
It’s not clear if you are planning to paddle solo or tandem. If you are planning solo trips and are considering a boat like the Esquif Pocket Canyon, which weighs nearly 60 lbs and is 14 1/2 feet long with 4 inches of rocker, I would consider looking for an older style whitewater boat like the Dagger Caption or Caper, Dagger Impulse, Blue Hole Sunburst II or (if you can find one) a Whitesell Piranha.
All of these have plenty of capacity for tripping, can handle any class of whitewater, and are comparable in weight and length to the Esquif (well, the Impulse is considerably shorter and somewhat lighter). All but the Impulse have the volume and length to convert to tandem use as well.
Dagger Impulse
I paddled an Impulse for a summer. I was leading youth on pretty easy class 2 with an occasional 3. That boat was so comfortable, I frequently forgot to look at the river, watching the kids paddle instead. If ever I got in the wrong place, it didn’t really matter because it was so dry and spun around so well, and was also reasonably quick.
Unfortunately, and this is something not all geographies have, the rivers I run are pool/drop, also called pool and riffle. The gradient looks less like a slope and more like a staircase. As such, there may be 10 or 20 miles of flatwater between rapids, followed by 10 rapids in the span of 2 miles. It makes for a challenge, in that a pure whitewater boat isn’t much fun on the flats, and a lake tripper won’t do in the rapids. It could be why Prospectors and more versatile craft are popular on the Canadian Shield while out West more pure WW boats exist, and in other parts lake trippers rule.
I’ll look at twintex. I was kind of waiting to see how it panned out before I bought in. I’ve heard good things so far.
Thanks again for everyone’s help. I will be looking for a Rogue, Appy, or maybe a Dagger Legend on the used market, and hope to test drive these boats and the twintex esquif as well.
I don’t plan to solo this one, but like to leave that option open.
Dagger Impulse
I paddled an Impulse for a summer. I was leading youth on pretty easy class 2 with an occasional 3. That boat was so comfortable, I frequently forgot to look at the river, watching the kids paddle instead. If ever I got in the wrong place, it didn’t really matter because it was so dry and spun around so well, and was also reasonably quick.
Unfortunately, and this is something not all geographies have, the rivers I run are pool/drop, also called pool and riffle. The gradient looks less like a slope and more like a staircase. As such, there may be 10 or 20 miles of flatwater between rapids, followed by 10 rapids in the span of 2 miles. It makes for a challenge, in that a pure whitewater boat isn’t much fun on the flats, and a lake tripper won’t do in the rapids. It could be why Prospectors and more versatile craft are popular on the Canadian Shield while out West more pure WW boats exist, and in other parts lake trippers rule.
I’ll look at twintex. I was kind of waiting to see how it panned out before I bought in. I’ve heard good things so far.
Thanks again for everyone’s help. I will be looking for a Rogue, Appy, or maybe a Dagger Legend on the used market, and hope to test drive these boats and the twintex esquif as well.
I don’t plan to solo this one, but like to leave that option open.
Dagger Legend 16
I have a 16’ Legend. It served me well. I could put my wife and 2 young daughters in it and run Class II-III water in it. It can certainly handle a load and any Class of WW but I don’t think you would be happy paddling it on the flats. Without a useful current, it is a pig for paddling any distance.
How Slow?
I read the paddling.net reviews, and of course, both boats are great, and rate 10/10.
I am curious, though, when people say “not a lake boat” or “slow on flatwater”.
Of course all river trippers are going to be slow next to a Minnesota II. Do either of these boats rate as particularly slow compared to Novacraft Prospectors, OT Trippers, or other common plastic expedition craft?
Oddly, at my local dealer, the Old Town is cheaper than the Wenonah, perhaps due to shipping deals?
Is the build quality similar?
Thanks again.
Great range of comments. Wind and
gettiing blown around when running rapids is a very undiscussed topic in most threads about OC-1.