I think something different happened right after molding while the poly was still soft, and they were cutting out the cockpit and hatches.
That’s a huge difference.
I’ve seen poly boats with serious deformation due to Florida heat and over tightened straps.
If I use my ruddered boat I always deploy the rudder. (Except maybe surf.) If I don’t want to use a rudder I choose my non-juddered boat. I cannot see any sensible reason not to deploy a rudder if there is one. (I presume you know how to paddle either with or without.)
A reason not to use a rudder when present is low speed maneuverability. When moving just a little faster than the current in a small river, the rudder slows a turn, and makes avoiding obstacles harder. For the rudder to help turn, the boat need forward speed in the water.
@gjf12 said:
If I use my ruddered boat I always deploy the rudder. (Except maybe surf.) If I don’t want to use a rudder I choose my non-juddered boat. I cannot see any sensible reason not to deploy a rudder if there is one. (I presume you know how to paddle either with or without.)
Rudder is drag also but there does come a point in certain conditions where I drop the rudder and paddle hard.
Rudder is drag also but there does come a point in certain conditions where I drop the rudder and paddle hard.
Using a rudder is more efficient than interrupting the forward stroke for steering. Traveling through wind and chop it is MUCH more efficient. Only for playing in waves and currents is it more efficient, and MUCH more fun,
Yes
Hull with neither rudder nor skeg:
Mariner kayaks (owned by the Broze brothers) are no longer made, but can sometimes be found. They were famous among sea kayakers for needing neither rudder nor skeg. The brothers were quite serious about their designs. In fact, Matt Broze developed the resistance prediction method for Sea Kayaker magazine’s (also defunct) kayak tests.
The web site is still up and makes very interesting reading for anyone looking at kayak hull design.
marinerkayaks.com/
@rsevenic said:
Hull with neither rudder nor skeg:Mariner kayaks (owned by the Broze brothers) are no longer made, but can sometimes be found. They were famous among sea kayakers for needing neither rudder nor skeg.
Years ago I owned both a Mariner Express and a Mariner Coaster. Both were fun boats, and the Broze innovation of a sliding seat worked nicely. But I sold them in favor of other non-ruddered boats. Also, I owned a ruddered boat at the same time as the Mariners which I used for traveling.
“needing a rudder” is a misplaced terminology. There are many non-juddered boats that handle well without a rudder. But a rudder improves efficiency somewhat. That does not mean a boat “needs” the rudder.
Anyone who is interested in a great sea kayak that doesn’t have a skeg, or rudder should take a look at NC Kayaks offerings (nckayaks.com). They are American made in Tacoma, Washington. My NC is pictured in my little avatar box (click on it) It is 19’-2" of pure paddling joy that loves big rough water.
@magooch said:
Anyone who is interested in a great sea kayak that doesn’t have a skeg, or rudder should take a look at NC Kayaks offerings (nckayaks.com). They are American made in Tacoma, Washington.
The NC-17 was another of my boats with out a rudder, and I sold it. The seam between the deck and the hull leaked very badly. NC sent me some foam to fill the obvious gaps in the seam, but I never got it properly sealed. I found the seat painfully uncomfortable. A strange hull shape and I did not like the way it handled at all. No accounting for taste. YMMV.
@gjf12 said:
@magooch said:
Anyone who is interested in a great sea kayak that doesn’t have a skeg, or rudder should take a look at NC Kayaks offerings (nckayaks.com). They are American made in Tacoma, Washington.The NC-17 was another of my boats with out a rudder, and I sold it. The seam between the deck and the hull leaked very badly. NC sent me some foam to fill the obvious gaps in the seam, but I never got it properly sealed. I found the seat painfully uncomfortable. A strange hull shape and I did not like the way it handled at all. No accounting for taste. YMMV.
why would there be any gaps in a fiber glassed seam?
@PaddleDog52 said:
why would there be any gaps in a fiber glassed seam?
I don’t know about the NC17, but there are at least two ways to attach the deck-to-hull seam:
- Some use an H channel and glue it to deck and hull for the connection (cheaper). A friend had a CD Caribou done this way. It leaked and the (Wenonah) factory failed to fix it. On a second try they provided a new kayak with a fiberglassed seam … it did not leak.
- Fiberglass the seam - slightly more expensive, but presumably better.
CD stood behind the repair, after some persuasive words.
@gjf12 said:
If I use my ruddered boat I always deploy the rudder. (Except maybe surf.) If I don’t want to use a rudder I choose my non-juddered boat. I cannot see any sensible reason not to deploy a rudder if there is one. (I presume you know how to paddle either with or without.)
Why use the rudder if the conditions don’t warrant it? I very rarely use the rudder on my Epic 16X - it just makes no sense for the mild conditions that I paddle in most of the time. The 16X is just way more fun to mess around in without the rudder deployed, than with it deployed. It has the Track Master Plus system, which I like better than any other system that I’ve tried - it’s completely out of the way when not deployed.
@rsevenic said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
why would there be any gaps in a fiber glassed seam?I don’t know about the NC17, but there are at least two ways to attach the deck-to-hull seam:
- Some use an H channel and glue it to deck and hull for the connection (cheaper). A friend had a CD Caribou done this way. It leaked and the (Wenonah) factory failed to fix it. On a second try they provided a new kayak with a fiberglassed seam … it did not leak.
- Fiberglass the seam - slightly more expensive, but presumably better.
CD stood behind the repair, after some persuasive words.
Current Designs has a glass seam on the inside. The H channel cannot be seen on the interior of the hull. New composite hulls at least ones made here have a glass seam inside and out now.
@rsevenic said:
@PaddleDog52 said:
why would there be any gaps in a fiber glassed seam?I don’t know about the NC17, but there are at least two ways to attach the deck-to-hull seam:
- Some use an H channel and glue it to deck and hull for the connection (cheaper). A friend had a CD Caribou done this way. It leaked and the (Wenonah) factory failed to fix it. On a second try they provided a new kayak with a fiberglassed seam … it did not leak.
- Fiberglass the seam - slightly more expensive, but presumably better.
CD stood behind the repair, after some persuasive words.
Well, NC has a third way, which they call the Performance Flange. Here is a description from their website:
“The Performance Flange is a ½ inch flange around the entire perimeter of the kayak where the deck and hull join. The flange serves numerous purposes. In rough water it performs as a spray rail pushing the bow of the boat up and deflecting the water down, thus reducing deck wash for a much drier ride. It helps to prevent loss of speed and momentum with each wave. The flange adds strength and stiffness to the kayak. It also allows us to bond the deck and hull together, taking what has traditionally been one of the weakest points on a kayak and making it one of the strongest.”
It may be strong, but mine leaked very badly. Also the notion of a “spray rail” did not do anything for me in choppy waters.
“The Performance Flange is a ½ inch flange around the entire perimeter of the kayak where the deck and hull join. The flange serves numerous purposes. In rough water it performs as a spray rail pushing the bow of the boat up and deflecting the water down, thus reducing deck wash for a much drier ride. It helps to prevent loss of speed and momentum with each wave. The flange adds strength and stiffness to the kayak. It also allows us to bond the deck and hull together, taking what has traditionally been one of the weakest points on a kayak and making it one of the strongest.”
It may be strong, but mine leaked very badly. Also the notion of a “spray rail” did not do anything for me in choppy waters.
As with any design and construction process, there can be and are from time to time minor failures. NC uses an extremely strong industrial glue to join the hull and deck. Once in awhile a very small leak will occur and it is easy to fix.
The “Performance Flange” does everything the manufacturer says and more. It absolutely does function as a spray deflector and helps to lift the bow when plunging into waves. The flange is covered on the outside by a vinyl rub strip that helps protect the perimeter of the boat and I find it very useful when handling the boat out of the water.
As for the hull shape, it is all about function and performance. NC boats are designed to go fast and straight, but like any other kayak, they can be maneuvered just fine, with perhaps a little different technique than average, because of the boat’s predilection to stay on course. All of your paddling effort is focused on moving the boat forward, with little if any wasted on keeping the boat on course.
Oh, about the seats on NC kayaks: I too thought the seat was to say the least, stiff and hard (molded fiberglass) and I thought I would always need a pad. I was wrong; for most, there will probably be a break-in period, but once you get used to these ergonomic seats, they are as comfy as it gets. And as they are designed to do, they contribute to the overall paddling efficiency. I equate it to quality bicycle seats that take some getting used to, but then prove to be the real deal.
Where is there a picture of the performance flange? Thanks
@PaddleDog52 said:
Where is there a picture of the performance flange? Thanks
Here’s a photo of one of their kayaks, but I can’t figure out where the performance flange is. With its minimal deck rigging, trying to figure out how you could carry a spare paddle.