list
Maybe a good idea to give examples of the boats you are talking about for those reading the thread that would like a comparison. I don't think most newbies know the differences in design that make a boat seaworthy. Most only think it's limited to large cockpit openings and no bulkheads.
There is a middle ground
I don’t know why more people don’t know about boats like the Tsunami by Wilderness Systems. They can be had in plastic in several sizes and are not “a fiberglass, carbon fiber or Kevlar 16 foot sea kayak.” I wouldn’t take one down a river with rapids, of course. I would use a WW kayak for that. Almost any old WW boat will do for up to class II and you can get one for less than $300. But for lakes, quiet deep rivers, and many bays a boat like the Tsunami is perfect.
He just did
(I think you got that backwards...)
WS Tsunami mentioned above, a pretty capable not-long boat available in plastic etc. They've shown up in our informal skills sessions and seem to basically do what is needed. And any manufacturer's web site where they list sea kayaks.
That said, to most people seaworthy is not the exactly the same as safe on the sea. The latter means, as has been mentioned above, that the boat has deck rigging and perimeter lines to facilitate re-entry, bulkheads - the stuff that is pretty clear on manufacturer's sites.
Seaworthy is a whole different discussion, at least to me, going to the hull design and how well it is designed to adapt to waves without capsizing. Overall the narrower profile of sea kayaks tends to be what most consider to be better there, but the devil is in the details and there are lots and lots of them to be haggled about when you get to hull design and stability on edge.
Just noticed that you have a QCC 400x. I don't know how you had it equipped, but aside from being a bit beamier than the sea kayaks I prefer I think it should be a resonably good example of a better equipped boat for some amount of conditions.
No way
My T-160 sot can handle anything my QCC-700s can, and more. Matter of fact I purposely take it out in the surf to ride the waves. I even hit the waves side ways just because I can. In a Sink that’s a sure way to get “washed” even with a good paddle plant in the face of the wave.
examples
In addition to the WS Tsunami I mentioned above there is the Necky Manitou which lists at just under $1000. It has a skeg, bulkheads and hatches and deck lines but no thigh braces (they can be easily added). At the end of the season many rental operations sell off their rental fleet and you can get perfectly good plastic sea kayaks for not a lot of money. Since they are suitable for rental they are suitable for someone with little or no experience in that they will be stable and track well. They will have the other features I mentioned as well.
interesting - many definitions
Interesting to see the many definitions of rec boats.
My definition:
- shorter length boats (usually 9 to 14' for singles)
- wider than touring boats (26"+)
- large cockpit, often without a skirt
- often no separate hatches
I never considered SOTs to be in this category, but instead in a separate category of their own. But I could see how some consider them to be rec boats.
Yes, there is some snootiness from touring or race kayak users toward "wreck" boats. And I do it sometimes too. But rec boats definitely have their place. I wouldn't want one for a coastal trip or any multi day camping trip. But if I had a cabin on the lake, something like an Old Town Loon would be a great boat because of its flexibility (can be used by one or two people, stability allows it to be a bit safer to use by less experienced paddlers, etc.).
rec boats
are all about recreation. So are touring kayaks and canoes. Use the boat best suited for the activity. Dont count primary feathers during hawk migration in the glades from a Nordkap. Dont surf from a Pungo.
REC = Re-Entry Complications
What I don’t like is the basic design’s problems with doing any sort of self or assisted rescues.
To me, no matter what you paddle, you should be able to get back in and on your way if something causes you to tip and exit. Sure, the shore may be near - but always? - and with decent shoreline to handle a swamped kayak (not swamp/rocks/seawall, etc.)?
Swimming to shore should not be the primary/only option. Does thinking this way make me a rec basher? Show that I don’t understand others uses? Make me some sort of elitist? Fine.
Rec boats make recoveries very difficult, and this can actually discourage learning to be a more skilled and safer paddler. The focus is automatically limited to capsize avoidance - which is at best a mix of wishful thinking and denial. The only option is an over-reliance on primary stability - fair weather - and luck.
I have learned not to trust any of these things.
It usually only takes one mishap to show the reality in stark contrast to the illusion. After such and event (not talking fun warm water swims or goofing around) the rec paddlers often either leave the sport, or begin to contemplate upgrades and actually learning to kayak.
“Ease of entry” into the sport means easier sales, and often sales that would not have happened if people were “scared off” by pointing out the obvious to them. Some really don’t care/want to know. Most won’t stay in the sport anyway - so might as well sell them something cheap and easy and see where it leads, right?
Those few that do stay with paddling fall into two groups: Those who have their needs met by such kayaks - sometimes with aditions/improvements like float bags (good for them, enjoy), and those who will upgrade (and generate more sales). For either group their rec will always be a source of enjoyment/fond memories (even those who got a wakeup call and were given reason to upgrade).
So yes, fun little boats I suppose. I just don’t like the built in limitations. Maybe OK if you know these limits, and your own, but that level of knowledge doesn’t describe the bulk of the target market (first time buyers) very well…
Similar sized SOTs make more sense for entry level (and most other rec uses too). SOTs also have issues - mostly a HUGE false sense of security - and beginners need to practice remounts until it’s as easy as getting on from shore.
No clear distinction.
"Most people mention big cockpits, wide beam, high primary stability, etc. Eventually the lack of built in floatation or bulkheads is mentioned."
That's a good summary.
There are many good comments in this thread.
Keep in mind that there is no clear line between the sets of "recreational", "touring", and "sea" kayaks. It really is more like a continuous spectrum. Moving from "recreational" to "sea", you'll find that the boats get longer and thinner.
It used to be that "touring" and "sea" were synonymous. Now, it seems that manufacturers are using "touring" to mean a "step up" from "recreational" and a "step down" from "sea" kayaks.
I think
you didn't notice the post time of my reply asking to list types of kayaks. Somehow my post shows up after his reply. The QCC 400x is a perfect rec touring kayak for the benign waters we paddle here in south florida.
Marketing
It’s marketing. But to me a rec boat isn’t a boat that you’d want to take on the ocean.
no flotation
is built into any boat of mine (not counting my sailboats- except a very small amount in my 30 yo canoe which i removed). oh, except for the perception sparky which has just enough flotation to keep it afloat. the rest of the builders i guess expect me to know what i’m doing and provide whatever flotation is needed. how 'bout an eft, thunderbolt, etc do they have flotation? boats with sealed hatches are in a different category until the hatches leak
We have
a WS Tsunami 12 ft, and a Necky Manitou 14. Necky calls it a day tourer. They seem to fall into this in-between catagory.
These have been good for the small lakes and slow rivers we paddle. I’d like to try some small bays someday, but I’m not sure if our yaks would be good enough for that.
excellent post, wkerrigan
Like you, I don't usually feel like rec boats are being demonized - well not here on p-net anyway. Occasionally, in local clubs, I'll hear someone make disparaging references about "boring flatwater" (and I'm inferring rec boats by association) but it doesn't happen often in my experience. There are a few elitists out there (the whitewater paddlers seem to be the most disparaging of rec paddling around here) who think rec boats/rec paddlers are a total waste of space. Too bad, because I don't try to stop them from enjoying whatever kind of paddling they prefer.
Spell it "wreck"
a rec boat can be a “wreck” waiting to happen.
no decent floatation.
usually no education for the paddler (or the salesperson who sold it)
no idea of the limitations…
spells “wreck” to me.
SoS
Manitou 14 is a sea kayak
It has two bulkheads, hatches, a skeg, and is highly maneuverable yet tracks well. It’d be very capable in big conditions. Would be a great entry level touring boat , rental, or outfitter boat. I’d paddle one in huge seas any day.
By some of the above definitions, my
Phoenix Isere http://www.pokeboat.com/Isere.htm is a rec boat because it doesn’t have bulkheads or deck lines or bungees.
It sure is heavy when it swamps and fills half up with water because I wasn’t wearing a water skirt and didn’t have air bags in the boat. The bags never leave the boat now, and I wear the skirt also nearly all the time. It’s very difficult to dump the water out of that particular boat by myself.
Wreck?
Bags can be added. To what effect, you can decide.
No education or idea of limitations? Hardly a boat design issue I would think. High end boats do not impart mystical skills upon their owners (as much as some would like to believe).
Phreon
Bought a Loon 111
and still have it. Now paddle a solo canoe that is great on a class 1 or 2 river. Would not even think about taking either on “big water”. Waves, wind, forget about it.
That’s nice to know.
I wasn’t sure what it’s capabilities were. We wanted something to give us a taste of paddling & that would take us through a couple of seasons til we knew if we would stick with this or not. So far they’ve been pretty good little boats for what we do.