Rec Boats
I assume I have rec boats, am I supposed to feel bad or in danger somehow? I have an AIRE Sea Tiger and Innova Sunnys and a Innova Safari. So far this year I have been at least one day a week on the Atlantic and some weeks more. I have been on the ocean Monday and Tuesday this week alone and expect to be out again on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. So far I have felt perfectly safe except for the shark doing a quick check on me Monday and the box jellfish swarm on Tuesday. Despite this I managed to dive, take pictures above and below water and have fun. Are rec boats all that bad? I carry a VHF onboard, have whistles, signal lights and fins/boots for all. Couldnt do what I do on a real kayak so I had to settle for a rec “kayak” design.
Jeeze…
Look, I started with a Loon 138 and a Pamlico 150. Great boats for getting on the lake with my kids, fishing, etc. Ain't nothing wrong with 'em for the right venues. Ain't nothing wrong with folks choosing to paddle 'em for the rest of their lives either.
While your point about a "high end" boat not magically bestowing skills to the owner is true, it is also true that a wide rec boat will work against a paddler seeking/wanting to improve his/her range of skills for a greater range of conditions and venues down the line.
For me, I have always appreciated that rec boats led me to the path of more specialization to fine tune my interest. I have plenty of "high end" (sea kayaking) boats and am now getting rid of 'em. Simply because that's not where my interest lies. No biggie. Following my interest and making no apologies.
If you like your rec boats and use them appropriately for your skills and conditions, what do you care what others think?
sing
You’re right
I didn’t notice. Sorry about that.
As to listing what I’d call a sea kayak - boats purchased for our household specifically as full going sea kayaks for coastal waters:
NDK Explorer LV, NDK Romany, Valley Aquanaut, P&H Vela, and as a surf boat the old dropped skeg Necky Elaho works too. Though it is even slower than the Romany, so while it is ell-suited to handling big water it is better used for short trips or messing around in surfy areas than trying to expedition with it.
Also take a look at the WS Tempest, the Necky Chatham series, the Impex long boats and the 17 ft plus stuff made by Current Designs.
As to your QCC 400x, if you have thigh braces (I know they can be optional on these boats) and deck rigging etc there are many here who would say that the paddler may be its limitation more than the boat itself. Like I said - it’s too beamy for me at 24 inches, but overall the QCC’s have respectable hulls. Length itself is less critical for day tripping in particular - my Vela is less than 16 ft but handles messy water better than its paddler.
Too much focus on the boat
As has been alluded to above, the categorization of boats and the desired features should have more to do with the intended use than going for a particular label, which is what a lot of this has started circling around. Someone who wants to paddle the ocean and similar big waters really needs to, in my opinion, at least attempt to get a roll and have a few other self-rescue skills practiced and ready to go. Also some decent paddling technique to handle rough conditions.
The things that make a sea kayak, or a WW boat, different from the "rec" boat become really apparent the first time someone tries to gain the necessary skills for that kind of environment. What is being referred to as true rec boats like the Otters etc of the world will make it really obvious early on that they are not interested in facilitating learning those skills - at all. Yeah, a good paddler could go out in a barge and make it do all kinds of spiffy things. But most paddlers starting out, who often start looking at these kinds of boats, have a skills deficit for these kinds of environemnts. In that situation, having a boat that is itself better suited to those conditions makes a huge safety difference, more so than it will some years later when they are discussing rec boats in a thread on this board.
Some interesting stats
On the East Coast USA here has never been a sea kayaking death (in a sea kayak). All deaths have been in recreational boats, canoes or white water.
When we battled registration in CT we looked into this stuff with the Coast Guard.
If these rec boat users would just wear the PFD those stats would change. They also have no respect or knowledge about cold water and they don't want to know or deal with any precautions. I know there are safe rec boat users but overall it's treated like a children's water toy until that one day when the wind picks up and they get into trouble.
Just to be sure I have this right…
I guess a lot of people “split hairs” over definitions. I have to agree that instead of definite catagories, it’s more of a spectrum from the 8-12 ft “little fat boat” (as my mom calls her kayak) to the sleek, long sea kayak.
Most of us own something in the middle. The variety is remarkable and delightful. It is every bit as delightful as the variety of people that own them.
Education, as well as understanding limitations, are important qualities in making kayaking an enjoyable sport.
There are always going to be folks who push the limits and there are always going to be narrow minded people.
Its wonderful that we can all come together in a place like P-net to discuss topics like this.
My Kestrel is a light, nimble boat that I hope to enjoy often and for a long, long time. (Love this Florida weather)
deb
Delight and Consternation
Kayaking is by no means the only only place where there exists a split between “recreational” and “serious” models.
Does the fellow who peddles a 50 plus-pound steel klunker bicycle (bought at WalMart) feel a certain comraderie with the leaders of the Tour de France? Probably so. Would Lance Armstrong think that huffing along on a Huffy is in any way related to cycling? Perhaps, but only in a very distant way.
I once drove a tiny rented Fiat on the Autobahn. Did it get me to my destination? Slowly. Did the “serious” drivers of BMWs and Audis think I was crazy? No doubt, but they were happy that I kept to the right.
Just think of how awful it would be in a world where the only choice is “one model fits all.” We should rejoice that new kayaks can be bought for $300 or $5000. What really makes it interesting is when a manufacturer releases a very low-priced serious boat—to the delight of the masses… and the consternation of the purists.
All you said applies to powerboaters too
"feeling bad"
about using a rec kayak.
No, it’s not about “feeling bad.” I have a rec kayak, a touring kayak, and a seakayak. Don’t feel bad about any of them.
Enjoy them all & try to use them in the appropriate environments. Working on my skill levels and taking water safety seriously.
I salute Jbabina & other club members who make on the water learning possible for beginners. Jay, I would take your class even if it was the sixth or sixteenth class I ever practiced in, because I can always use the practice to learn!
However, the people most in need of this learning are often the ones most likely to disdain it. Some continue to justify their deficiencies by treating skills assessment like a personal attack, either on themselves or their boat.
If someone gets in trouble due to lack of skills, in a kayak that is less responsive to that environment, the water doesn’t care how you “feel”.
Manitou on Lake Superior
I got caught out on Lake Superior in 25-30 mph winds, 3-ft seas, and the guy next to me in his Manitou was doing just fine. My old 15-ft Merlin XT inspired that kind of confidence too.
Sing, et al
Take it easy. Perhaps my use of the word "demonize" wasn't the best choice, but I definitely sense that the term "Rec Kayak" carries a negative connotation for many. I'm not professing my boat to be the end all like Pamlico140 does. It is what it is. A good starting point. Something I'll continue to enjoy in conditions it is designed for. A boat I'll hang on to for people to borrow.
I'm merely starting a dialog. Throwing a thought out there to see what sticks, if you will. On P-Net and within this very thread, I see people making statements that would lead the casual observer to believe they are somehow tied to the "quality" of their craft and might be looked down upon. I'm curious as to why that is. Surely most people didn't start out in full sea kayaks, right? Most of us can agree the real problem is education. Sure, there are pig-headed people who will heed no warning no matter how stern; They are masters of their own fate. For the rest, what could be done to draw them into the "community" and educate them rather than alienate?
My old Dagger got me on the water and opened the door to a world I never imagined. I've already added an old river tripping canoe to my solo fleet to broaden my open boating horizons and imagine I'll eventually wind up with a longer, leaner kayak as well. A true river running kayak (or perhaps canoe) is probably in the cards as too. No matter how far I progress, I can't see how that could in any way diminish what the rec. boat was and is good for. I figure I can learn something from each boat.
Just a friendly conversation...
Phreon
it’s a good thread!
thank you for starting it & keeping it more than civil 
I agree w. the person who posted earlier that kayak design is a continuum with no precisely defined points… from the most basic Otter to the biggest Passage tandem. So too is the range of skills & attitudes of paddlers. Layer onto that different degrees of experience.
Being a novice myself, and getting used to the qualities of the different types of kayaks I own, is great! I wouldn’t deny someone who wanted to try kayaking the pleasures of just starting out, because that’s where I’m at now.
At the same time, because I respect the sport, it’s the rec kayaker w. the bad design and the bad attitude re skills development that to me is the most likely to bring about more accidents, use more rescue and monitoring resources, that may well result in unneeded legislation and registration for us all because they can’t, y’know “handle their business”.
You don’t come off that way at all, and you definitely are at least three snaps up from the dude who is “obsessed w. Pamlico 140s” In his own words 
Celia
To say a boat is ill suited to rough water because it is shorter is simply incorrect. What do the Tsunami Rangers Paddle? Again. the Coaster comes to mind. What do most good boaters paddle in really big conditions?
Elaho drop skeg, though not my favorite boat is absolutely rough water capable...every bit as much as your beloved Brit boats. Where do you get your biases? I know your husband has the drag data...so why not review it. Long does not equate to more seaworthy, especially for a person your size. You seem smart, but I think you are a bit confused on some things. Mariner's site, Winters, Guillemot, Gronseth, Sea Kayaker, etc.
Do you think there may be exceptional boats around the globe, other than your favorites?
Some “masters of their own fate”…
… are also meddlers in the rest of our fates.
Their mishaps and misadventures fuel the push for regulations and fees on kayaks/kayakers now underway in many states - providing justification for idiotic proposals from the endless hunger of the politicians.
Laissez-Faire… NOT!
Yeah, while I don't care what others paddle and think everyone has a right to do they want, including getting killed, not everyone thinks the same way.
We got proposed legislation up at the state house for mandatory PFDs and whistles due to the deaths of the two women a couple of years ago -- college co-eds, swim team members, went out off the cape in fog and building conditions in two rec boats. I don't believe either wore PFD's (hey, they're swimmers). Neither came back alive. Hence, solution is legislation.
Yeah, so there are ripple effects from bad choices people make.
Thank goodness a waveski is really a surf board. Screw it, I am exempt. Surfers are a grungy lot and no one cares if one of us goes. We're all stupid anyway! ;)
sing
Effects of bad choices
(Surfing in winter and storms… yeah a lot of folks on the street would say that indicated brain damage…)
If the three who decided to try out their new rec boats on Round Lake in January here, and darned near died, had done so we might have found some new signage posted at one of the most useful little lakes/ponds around here for early season skills work. The fact that other kayakers saved them, and got so much attention, may have been the saving grace. These three really didn’t know any better, but that wouldn’t have stopped repercutions.
No state would react so strongly to lousy drivers (wish they would), but something like recreational craft, sea or land for ex. bicycles, are an easy target for officials who want to look like they are being useful.
The situation in Massachusetts seems particularly silly. In the couple of years now since those young women were lost some huge number of people have gone out in kayaks etc with no change in prior patterns of trouble, and w/o this legislation to somehow assure their safety. But the bill just won’t die.
That Explains It!
brain damaged! Too many hits to the head over the years. And, I still like it. Someone says, “Let’s compete” and I think gloves or sticks, points or knockouts?
Funny thing is that surfers lose about one a year around here. Nobody talks about regulating the surfers, except to get them out of swimming beaches in the summer. It’s just assumed that it’s a “dangerous sport.” With kayaking, it may be the opposite. Folks think you can just head out in any ole thing and fine. Mostly, they are… But when something happens, the reaction is to protect the ignorant against making stupid choices.
Guess I am glad I have become a surfer rather than a “paddler.”
sing
Ok
So somehow if those gals were in Carbon fiber QCC 700s it would have been different? It’s the paddler NOT the boat.
so
you’re saying it’s the use not the boat then.
try reading again
I don't think she said that at all, I think she extolled the virtues of the Elaho in particular. Most people speak from what they've experienced and these boats are what she has paddled. She did say these were in the family stable. FYI necky WS and CD are not brit boats. I think the bias is perceived by you.
Shorter boats are great for playing in rough seas (and again, she says as much). Longer boats - brit, american, canadian or venusian - should travel longer distances in rough seas with less effort.
Tell you what: let's pick a day with 3' following or quartering seas and 15 mph winds. You can paddle the elaho and I'll paddle an Explorer. We'll paddle 15 miles and see who gets there first.