Singing To The Chorus…
I agree and on top of that, I don't care. As I said, I am firm believer that adults should be able to do what they want with a consenting boat. :)
Evidently, the girls' parents and some legislators disagree. :(
sing
Laissez-Faire… NOT!
I agree in philosophy. I don’t even like mandatory PFD’s or mandatory anything. The only problem is that bad statistics are used whenever the morons who run our governments are looking for money and want to pass mandatory registration of paddle boats. I fought this in CT with others and they want money. They don’t care how many kayakers die. They even use homeland security as an excuse too. So if people want to have the right to die in their paddle boats, please do it some place remote and hide the evidence.
One quibble
Often other people’s behavior has an impact on me. For example, I don’t care if a motorcyclist chooses not to wear a helmet and kills himself. I do care if I have to pay taxes to provide him medical care because he made a stupid choice. I would care if I had to risk my life to help a paddler in trouble because they made a stupid choice not to wear a pfd. This is a connected world and while there are some things that have mostly private consequences most things have collective consequences. Dealing with the collective consequences of private behavior is what government is supposed to be about.
NO Quibble
"Dealing with the collective consequences of private behavior is what government is supposed to be about."
There is a whole range of issues on this continuum. I act quite a bit on some. Paddling... Very low on my totem pole. Dealing with the legislature, there is only so many times one can go to the well. I'm not expending my time, energy and effort on this.
It's a molehill in my realm of concerns.
sing
does it have to be “either/or”?
My first experience in a kayak was rather harrowing–I capsize, and the boat, with only foam columns, sank. Of course it was my fault that I capsized. But it didn’t help the situation any when the boat disappeared into the briney deep.
Nicely said
Great post!
Realm of concerns…
Hi Sing (and everyone else!),
Several times I've visited this thread in the past couple of days, often feeling the urge to contribute my two cents. Each time I started a reply, I realized that I had too much to say, and not enough time to say it (been spending my time paddling, and planning a sea kayak tour business).
I have a few minutes before I have to get back to work on my little project, so I'd like to mention something that has been alluded to in this particular branch of the thread, but not discussed in much depth beyond the realm of unwanted regulations, fees, and silly politicians...
Be it from ignorance, bravado, or any other form of stupidity, when we carelessly/needlessly risk our own lives, we're also carelessly/needlessly risking the lives of others. I'm thinking here of both private citizens who will do whatever they can to help when they see someone in trouble (I hope that includes all of us), and professional SAR personnel as well (Coast Guard, municipal surf rescue teams, etc.).
As a primarily solo paddler, who spends most of my time on coastal/open waters, quite often in very lively conditions, I am acutely aware of *my responsibility* for my own safety, and also *my reponsibility* to not carelessly/needlessly put others in potential danger just so that I can have my fun.
In the nine years I've been living and paddling in this small seaside community, I've attended two funerals for members of our local joint police/firefighter surf rescue team (they train and work closely with the local Coast Guard).
The first, just one year after I arrived here, was for a police officer member of the team, who, on his day off, heard the call of a surfer in trouble over this radio, and joined the team for the rescue effort. The surfer was eventually rescued, but we lost a great man (and a close friend to many of us here). This incident was clearly the result of an out of town surfer, who didn't know anything about the local breaks, trying to surf where no one with an ounce of sense would have been in those particular conditions (not even good surfing conditions, by the way).
The second funeral, at the end of March last year, was for a Captain in our fire department. He drowned during a training exercise for the surf rescue team. As I see it, his death was no less tragic and heroic than the first, as he lost his life while preparing himself to save others.
At the end of the day, I care more about the human cost of our potentially stupid choices than I do about what it will "cost me" in terms of dollars and/or inconvenience. Please don't misunderstand me here, as I too am concerned with too many regulations and fees for all the wrong reasons. However, when we discuss these issues of boat seaworthiness and paddler awareness, judgment, and skill, I do feel that we should never forget that our personal choices can indeed have consequences beyond just ourselves, and in the realm of on-the-water recreation, these consequences--for others as well as for ourselves--can be issues of life and death.
That said, I am passionate about my love for paddling, and I will continue to enjoy the waters and conditions that inspire me so. At the same time, I hope that I'll always exercise good judgment, and not *needlessly* put others in harm's way.
Melissa
Tempests are Rec Boats
I don’t know what a Tsunami model is, but I would definitely throw the Tempest into the recreational category of sea kayak.
let’s think about it this way…
This thread is sounding all too-familiar with a thread I started last week. Indeed, I see many of the same people posting. I do want to thank those that provided helpful information, both on this public site, and to the many who sent me responses privately for fear of being derided publicly (for obvious reasons, many of which can be seen below)
There is definitely no questioning the importance of education and safety. And it may be naïve, but I’d like to think that each person knows what he/she needs for their particular situation. I don’t know if one is necessarily “stupid” if they choose a different path than I would.
One of the responses on my post last week mentioned “scaring the bejesus out of somebody.” So since I had been duly scared bejesusly, I did some research into kayaking fatalities (as I did on kayaks which would best suit my needs, but that’s for another post).
I found a report on the ACA site, “U.S. Canoe and Kayak Fatality Analysis 1996-2002).“ The question I wanted to answer was:
“Are kayakers on calm waters (i.e., “recreational” kayakers) more likely to be involved in a fatal accident?”
First off, the report found that “of approximately 9.6M participating in kayaking, 31% paddle freshwater, 20% whitewater, 31% exclusively coastal, and 12% both fresh and coastal.”
Additionally the report found (based on USCG data, for canoes and kayaks combined):
Of 459 observations, 49% of fatalities were in calm water, 51% in choppy, rough or very rough water.
With regards to relative experience, the report found, of 323 observations:
the answer
is in your second paragraph.
The paddler with the best sense of limitations will survive.
This has nothing to do with the boat. To say that every rec boat should have flotation and warning labels is a bit extreme. Having said that, anyone venturing out on the water needs to be aware of the dangers. Where do we get this information? Classes are helpful but rec kayakers don’t always take classes. It would be nice if merchants would circulate some info but with the REIs and Dick’s, that seems unrealistic. I hope all the locals would heed the same advice by now but I personally rented a boat last spring to paddle in cold water and basically picked the boat up at the merchant with some very cursory questions about ability and equipment. Personal experience seems to be it. Having said that, I see more people in rec kayaks who are ill-prepared for the conditions than I do those in sea kayaks - but I see more rec boats period.
If I’m using a boat that cannot be righted or re-entered in the ocean in rough conditions I’m clearly over the line - but that’s not a fault of the boat.
Kayaking Safety and being smart
I’d like to say that certain vendors do try to educate the boaters by offering classes and demonstrations, often free of charge. So do local clubs. In my area, both REI and Midwest Mountaneering, as well as the local canoe and kayaking clubs offer safety classes and demos. Some subjects are somewhat exotic, but nevertheless necessary, like winter kayaking.
Part of the problem is in perception – kayaking, especially in calm waters, looks easy. Mass-market boats are fairly stable, and this leads people to think that they do not need PFDs, especially on smaller streams or calm lakes.
If you look at people who fish from boats, most of them do not wear PFDs, and most of them do not dress for the weather or water temperature. They believe in their boat stability and safety, and thus do not take other precautions.
Mass-market (rec) kayaks convey the same sense of safety. And most of the times they are.
The most important aspect in safety is to be judgemental toward your own skill set and the paddling environment, including the capabilities of the boat. This means adding flotation for boats that do not have it built in, staying close to shore while in boats that are not equipped for re-entry, and have rudimentary bailing skills in case of keel-over. This also includes judging the weather conditions, water conditions and own skill and health level before making a decision on whether to proceed.
Unfortunately, some occurences are completely beyond one’s control, such as reckless behavior by others.
I think that this is what the statistics convey – picking conditions and equipment based on skill level, and not overexerting yourself beyond reasonable limits will keep you safe.
Decision on which boat type to paddle is secondary to overall subjective assessment of skills and safety.
Probably yes but…
Huge condensation of a too-verbose post...
A seasoned paddler who can roll etc in a sea kayak is more likely to be wearing clothing for immersion (wetsuit, drysuit etc) than a novice in a rec yak, also more likely to have practiced getting back in (as a result of failures while learning to roll etc). A seasoned paddler who has all seat time and no practice in skills out there is no better off than the novice paddler on the pond.
Forget the statistics - what works is training and practice in a boat to see how this all works for you. You can't do that part online.
Rec, Smeck
I really don’t have any problem with “recreational” kayaks. It certainly is quite possible to paddle them safely.
I’d really not like to see any regulation because it’s a lot of effort and expence to avoid what is, in fact, a rare event.
I suspect that many purchasers buy “recreational” boats on a whim from places that don’t have a lot of paddling experience.
People spending money on a “real” sea kayak are more likely to get into a situation where risks and skills are discussed.
Ed Gertler in his New Jersey guide book said that Americans tend to think they innately know how to paddle a canoe (and so they don’t think they need lessons).
statistics are what they are…
indeed I wanted to point out the importance of education and safety and knowing one’s limitations.
funny though one would say ignore the statistics. they are what they are… that’s like saying statistics show that drunk drivers cause more accidents, but let’s ignore the statistics.
Nope
From where I am sitting you are trying to broaden an original question about what constitutes a rec boat, and what difficulties those may present, to a numbers game. The original question has been answered times over - there are concrete features that make a rec boat more apt for protected, fairly safe waters.
The latest round seems to be about putting numbers on risks before you have ever been in a boat and done some work to have experience with what those risks are about. Get in a boat and paddle it - find a way to take lessons - in sum get wet in some way that hasn't committed you to a particular boat then come back and look at those statistics.
You'll notice more that those stats don't include any useful information on whether the paddler is skilled and trained or just has seat time and has been lucky.
reacreational kayaks ARE
Real kayaks
Indeed
We can look at stats all day, but what really matters--and makes a difference in those sterile stats, eventually--is what happens on the water with each individual.
As far as I'm concerned, a total newbie, armed with nothing more than an inspiration to paddle (a very good thing!), limited personal experience (there's a cure for that), and pages of stats (nearly useless), is in no position to make an informed decision about a first boat and gear purchase. Especially if they're trying to accomplish much of this research online.
From the first moment I sat in a kayak, I *knew* that paddling would be a great passion of mine (turns out I was right about that! :-)), and though I wanted to go out and purchase my first boat right away, I didn't. I was fortunate enough to have exercised some patience, and happily went through the rent/demo/borrow stage while developing some basic skills along the way (which, in turn, gave me a better understanding of what I was looking for).
This rent/demo/borrow stage for me was probably more intensive than most people have the time for, as I paddled every day (yes, seven days a week), from morning to night, for three full months before deciding upon my first boat. Even in just my first three months of paddling, I probably logged more on-the-water hours/miles, and paddled a greater variety of boats in a variety of conditions than many relatively enthusiastic paddlers will in an entire year of occasional three hour weekend paddles.
Demo, demo, demo! :-) (and I don't mean those free 10/20 minute "demos" offered by retailers or at symposiums). Those are fine for an experienced paddler to get a good general sense of a boat's basic characteristics, but for a newbie, ten minutes in a boat is pretty much meaningless.
Melissa
Odds? - Think again!
"- 29% of fatalities involved an operator with less than 10 hours of experience
Yugo’s…
Are real cars too…
Whatever…
Issues
Whatever...
A kayak is a boat, not a penis proxy.
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