"What would you do?"

There isn’t an exclamation strong enough
to express my reaction to your post.



I use bow and stern lines on the extremely few times I rooftop the kayaks. When trailering, I only use 2 straps per boat. I’ve thought about how to secure the boats to something other than the trailer’s crossbars and could not come up with anything bombproof. As it is now, I run the straps around the risers, the crossbars, and the main trailer “beam” that runs the length of it below. If one or both crossbars broke, the kayak would make a mess of itself and the trailer (I think) but at least it wouldn’t fly through the air. I would definitely hear the sound of the damage being done, hopefully in time to avoid pieces going astray.



Some people who use painter lines on road trips might not use them for shorter drives. I think this is where the real trouble might arise, as often those shorter drives are the more frequent ones, and in metropolitan traffic.

Agree with last comment
I too am more concerned about someone using poor rooftop hardware and straps. Or someone who didn’t strap/tie the boats securely even if the equipment is good. Which still doesn’t mean painter lines aren’t helpful, if only a little.

what if
I attach the boat to the truck in another way without bow and stern lines?



I once met a guy who told me a semi tire came up and cut his bow line and broke the front rack, the boat then came off the vehicle. Whats the plan for this situation? Which isn’t that unlikely considering how often those things fly around.



Bottom line, logical safety dictates the boat be attached to the rack and to the vehicle independent of the rack. However this is achieved is fine. Unfortunately, really, really horrible things happen.



Ryan L.

I think the point is bow and stern
lines in addition to, not in lieu of, straps. I do both because the confidence of having a belt in addition to the suspenders, especially when that means an additional safeguard against damaging an expensive (or even not expensive) canoe and more importantly adversely impacting or taking a priceless life, is well worth eight dollars of rope and an additional four minutes of my life. We all must make our own decisions, but that seems like a no brainer to me.

you also arent
Reading. I’m saying attach your boat in two ways. One, strap it to the rack. Two, attach it to the vehicle in a way that is independent of the rack.



Question for thought. What is more likely. Guy doesnt tie down boat properly or all racks fail? Rack safety is almost exclusively dependent on the user.



Ryan L.

You missed the point
There are ways to create the additional safety other than bow and stern lines. See, my post above on how I attach canoes on my pickup.

You’re right. I didn’t pay close enough
attention to your final sentence.

What would I do?
Typically I don’t use a stern line. Nor do I see the need to.

Still, good friends are hard to come by.

So if I was your friend I would hope that I could accommodate your concern.



PS. Watch out for that Elmo guy. He’s been known to butter the bottom of his bread.

Butter… nah!
Lard… yup!



FE

You’ll Never Get A Ride In Hawaii
Because nobody uses them there. Only newly arrived paddlers do so and quickly discontinue the practice. Why? Because it is usually windy and the bow lines detach themselves, the tires run over them and snap the canoe or kayak in half (which flys onto the road).

Always triple check your rigging, check straps and buckles, screw down rails and re-clamp towers, etc. When on the freeway, I use a third front strap that loops around the kayaks/canoes, passes through the front doors/under headliner and cinched down outside as a safety.

yup
Same here



Ryan L.

Focusing on the topic
I understand the topic NOT to be how I secure boats, but rather, whether I would ride in someone else’s vehicle who didn’t have bow/stern lines.



As a matter of history, I have done so hundreds of times over my last 35 years as an active whitewater and flatwater canoeist, seakayaker and outrigger canoeist. Specifically, I have shuttled with various groups and individuals all over North America – some of whom were in my club or otherwise known to me, and many others of whom I simply met at various put-ins and takeouts when I am solo and alone.



I would certainly continue to do so. My presence in this other person’s vehicle does not change the risk of the boat flying off her roof. And if I don’t accept her shuttle, then I may not be able to boat that day or be stranded at the take-out.



I rode in such a vehicle just the other day here in Alaska. There really is no taxi service where we were. No homo sapiens on the shuttle road either.



Another day up here, I was with someone how had a bow line but who didn’t know how to tie good knots. I watched out the front window as the knot unraveled and the bow line came loose. There was little chance of the boat coming off the vehicle, however, as the belly straps were wrapped through the inside of the vehicle.



I would ride with you anytime, Jack. I don’t know you personally, but from reading you here, I am supremely confident you are an expert in affixing boats securely and safely to vehicles, especially your own.



BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an outrigger canoe or rowing shell affixed with bow and stern lines. And I’ve shuttled with outrigger paddlers in California, and sometimes with the national rowing team folks in my town in Connecticut.



Of course, I do LOOK at how my driver has affixed the boat, and am not averse to offering suggestions.

What would I do?
Most people don’t do the extra belt and suspenders tie downs with white water boats, in my hood. Two good belly straps, and an additional tie through a grab handle or security bar for extra security is standard practice for shuttle. Same for most people for travel, although a few folks I know do use the extra lines for travel - these folks have the door clip-style racks, not the bolted to the roof style racks. I don’t trust those type of racks much, myself.



I always use bow and stern lines on my sea kayaks, but have ridden with others for short shuttles without them, when they are driving their cars with my boat on.



The unwritten rule is the driver is responsible for the tie down. I don’t think anyone would object if I wished to add additional security to a tie down on my boat on their car, as long as I was able to do it reasonably quickly without damaging their vehicle.



Experience is the best teacher, and for those who have experienced trauma from boat transport, I wouldn’t question their choices, even if I might not adopt them 100% myself. Nearly every one I WW boat with has more experience than me, so I try and learn from their examples.

?
No one knows how to tie a decent knot in Hawaii?

This topic is starting to sound…
…as contentious as the helmet wars on cycling message boards. And that can get pretty nasty and stupid very quickly.



However, at the risk of starting a flame war, I will give you my 2¢. I NEVER use bow and stern lines and I don’t see any reason to use them UNLESS you are carrying your boat on one of those crappy cheapo foam jobs you set directly on top of your car roof, or some other similarly cheesy way of attaching boat to car.



If you have a GOOD rack system, PROPERLY attached to your car and GOOD cam buckle straps, again, PROPERLY attached, your boat is not going anywhere you don’t want it to go, except in the case of a rollover or possibly the aforementioned tire flying off the back of a truck, in which case you have much more to worry about and a couple of ropes ain’t gonna do you no good anyway.



My racks and straps are super solid and I am willing to bet my life and everyone else’s on them. Written guarantees available at a modest cost… :wink:

Disagree somewhat on the cheese
I have never personally seen a canoe come off the top of a vehicle, though I have read of incidents here.



It is my personal experience and opinion that the part of the system most likely to fail – the cheesiest part – is the rack structure and not the belly lines/straps. And the most likely part of the rack structure to fail is the way that the towers are attached to the roof.



I don’t like those towers that clip onto the door frame. I think those are the softest cheese. I like towers that are bolted through the roof, directly or indirectly, or that are welded onto the roof. My three vehicle have racks attached this way, and I am very confident the racks won’t fail.



If you use clip on towers, a better way to ensure boat security than bow/stern lines would be an additional belly strap or two going through the inside of the vehicle through the doors (geometry permitting).



Foam blocks are not particularly cheesy, in my experience, if you have two strong belly lines going through the doors inside the vehicle. Even without bow/stern lines, the hull will not fly off the vehicle with this arrangement, though it might yaw on certain roof geometries. V lines at bow and stern are then useful to diminish yaw.

3rd
I use a belly strap for security. And I make damn sure my rack and straps are tight, which is a suggestion I think is missing here.

do cyclist
Not wear helmets? I don’t think I’ve seen a road rider without a helmet in a long long time.



Ryan L.

I’ll just say this

– Last Updated: Jul-26-13 3:13 PM EST –

Three people here have legitimately pointed out that there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution for every type of boat and vehicle.

But not one person has mentioned that you ought to make very sure that your straps are safe and secure, and that your rack is secured to the car and crossbars to the rack. I'm going to jump in for Jackl here, I know he doesn't use bow and stern tiedowns yet he's done thousands of miles of cartops of boats, bikes, other stuff, and not one failure. Why? Probably because he makes sure his rack will not fail him. I would absolutely trust jackl, ride in his car or in front or behind him (if we rode in the same car we'd probably get on each others' ornery nerves).

I find it very hard to believe that a properly secured and maintained rack, using properly maintained, inspected and installed straps, will fail. I just do not buy it, and I've seen far too many cartops where the rack and/or the straps are questionable. IMO any attention shouldn't be limited to "bow/stern lines yes or no".

Secure your rack.
Maintain and check hardware.
If you don't know how to secure a cam buckle in such a way that you know it won't come loose - get someone to show you.

Bow and stern lines are the icing on the cake, not a foundation.

?
No one who uses bow and stern lines can tie a decent knot?