Good For You
I admit I occasionally forego extra lines on short shuttles. Who knows, maybe a life will be spared or injury averted because someone changed their habits when they read this thread? If someone had your experience, they would probably take the same stand as you. Expect a little “Flaming” from those who don’t agree, it goes with the territory.
Bow and stern lines coming loose from the winds in Hawaii? Give me a break. We had 40-50 mile cross winds in Wyoming a couple years ago with gusts even higher and no problems with my lines. I was afraid the car was going to take flight occasionally! I frequently drive in 30+ mph winds. Only time I’ve dropped a strap into the path of my tire was when I had a rack break. Damage was to my own '97 RAV4 instead of some poor sucker behind me thanks to my bow lines.
Not an uncommon sight
I’ve seen helmetless road riders in three categories:
- Adults and kids who are just treating the bikes like toys–occasional users
- Racers who are training on a hot day and climbing a long grade; helmets are sometimes on the bike in that case
- People who evidently can’t afford to buy a helmet OR don’t really think about it (you know…the ones toting giant trash bags full of their life’s possessions, or drunks who don’t have cars or driver’s licenses)
I can think of a large “town” back in Colorado where probably every adult was wearing a helmet when roadriding, but that’s not what I’d call a cross-section of the real world. It was a place where the population was middle- to upper-middle-class, well-employed, responsible, had dependent children, etcetcetc.
My racks are not "clip ons"
Clip-ons make me nervous too, although I haven’t heard of any catastrophic accidents with them, when properly installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. I’m sure ompanies like Yakima and Thule thought about their liability long and hard when they came up with these systems and tested them thoroughly, but I would rather go with through-bolted stuff, thank you very much.
I have the Yakima Rail Grabbers on the factory Subaru rails, which are excellent. My racks are as solid as can be.
Yeah, really?
If the wind is untying your knots, you don’t know how to tie a knot, period.
i was referring
To serious cyclists, like the kind on a cycling message board. Obviously, many if us have riden the old local path without a helmet, but I didn’t think in serious cycling that helmets were optional.
Ryan L.
Yes
I know Jack has posted advice on checking, maintaining, and chucking-if-warranted, tie-down straps.
"Serious cyclists"
There are probably as many definitions of “serious cyclist” as there are cyclists. To me there is no more serious cyclist than the one who commutes to and from work everyday. The “Lance Wannabees” who suit up in flashy team uniforms and ride on the weekends, not so much.
Anyhow, you will find both helmeted and bare-headed serious cyclists everywhere.
The better to see you…
I am at best ambivalent about stern lines because it really depends on the setup. I have been behind plenty of cars where a stern line came loose and was flapping in the wind waiting to catch in the wheel well and send half of a sea kayak flying at cars behind it. The driver never was going to see the problem.
But bow lines are another matter, because in most setups the driver can see them and they give you early warning.
I also know of a very good WW paddler who got all the way home without realizing their boat and the car had parted company about a hundred miles ago. With a bow line, she could have seen it starting rather than having to buy a new boat.
As to the rest of it... the bicycle helmet thing is entertaining until you know someone who died from a fairly low speed accident where a helmet could have helped. I do. But if you want to wait until you have the same experience, it's a democracy. Not worth a battle here.
My biggest reason for not responding to this post earlier was that I didn't see a discussion here anyway, just an already hardened opinion. Which has provided a platform for other already hardened opinions... purpose escapes me.
Retroreflective stern lines
I have some with diagonal retroreflective stripes on them. Figured they might be good for night driving. Did NOT want that on the bow line, though–possibly too distracting for me behind the wheel since that is much closer a distance than safe following distance behind me for the next driver.
Thanks for saying what I have said…
in the past and will continue to say.
But you will be called every name in the book if you disagree with the ones who think the opposite of your methods.
Just look at the replies under my post above.
Jack L
Thanks , but you made a mistake
I never have said that I NEVER use front and rear tie downs.
I use them when the conditions and systems warrant them. Sometimes I do, and some times I don’t
If any one is traveling from Mass to NC on the interstates today or tomorrow you just might see a vehicle with two yaks and a canoe using them.
Unfortunately, if a person like myself has a different opinion and posts it, he is automatically a no good rotten friz-a- frat by the “politically correct” on this forum.
just take a look at the reply under my post above for a good example.
Jack L
to Ravenwing
after hearing your story, I will pledge to add an additional line. I already use 2 straps and a stern line. Out of ignorance, I’ve only bothered with the bow line when getting on highway.
I figure it will take me 2 minutes extra for the bow lines every time I cartop my boat. Two minutes is worth it to avoid causing the heartbreak you described.
Thanks for creating awareness of the danger.
Adrian
Vintage Sunfish tie-down
Reading through this, I am reminded of the fact that in the '60s we had a Sunfish sailboat which is much heavier than most kayaks. We had a cheap, bendy aluminum roof rack affixed to the rain gutters with little plastic knobs that were always loosening themselves. We tied the boat down with two or three bungees across the hull. That was it. And in the summer we used to take it from Long Island upstate to Lake George.
No incidents, but I sort of shudder thinking about it today!
Steel reinforced straps
By the way, if you want serious protection, ditch those skimpy webbed straps with pot metal buckles and pony up for a set of these:
http://www.kanulock.com/
Steel reinforced cabling inside and lockable. Bombproof and theftproof (except perhaps for the most determined thieves). I can leave my boats on the car overnight in hotel parking lots, and sleep soundly. These straps will not fail on the highway or anywhere else.
Not cheap, but worth it, absolutely. I set things up so the straps run under the front and back of the coaming, elimiating forward and backward movement. Sure, use bow and stern lines as the belt that goes with the suspenders, but it’s these straps that are doing the work.
Purpose
My purpose with my original post was not to open a discussion on whether bow and stern tie downs are necessary. As I said, that has been discussed ad nauseum here. My first purpose was to share a personal decision I reached recently after researching news stories on accidents. My second purpose was to open a discussion among those who are already persuaded of the necessity of bow and stern lines about how to respond to friends who don’t use them or who refuse to use them. My main interest is the responsibility that we have toward other people.
Yeah - some discussions…
are not.
One other idea that I have heard, but is quite unpopular because it really does add time, is to double the straps so there are two independent straps at each point. That takes away the issue of buckle failure since the odds of two well-inspected straps failing at the same time are pretty thin.
We heard this from an outfitter who had seen too many problems occur with flying stern lines, but did due diligence on making sure his racks and towers were always in good shape. We have found that new towers are needed much more frequently than new cross bars for example, but I don’t know how many people make that interim investment.
In that case…
the question may have been to ask what would you say or how would you explain your decision. What you would do was already stated.
From the replies above, I am not the only one who did not get the discussion point. It is mostly a lot of statements about what people do themselves, not how they talk about it with others.
Just out of curiosity
I goggled “car accident, kayak”, and two accidents came up
One in GA
http://marietta.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/charges-expected-in-i-75-accident
One in WA
http://www.seattlecaraccidentlawyerblog.com/2011/07/dropped_kayak_causes_lost_load_1.html
In both cases, it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that you shouldn’t get in a car (or drive behind a car) that doesn’t have a good rack and straps. Bow and stern lines are secondary, and based on the setup that I usually see people use – a single ratcheting line attached to the grab handle of the kayak – I don’t think that they would be much help in a situation like this.
I’ve never heard of a lost load statute, but clearly a lost boat falls under these statutes. Interestingly, nothing came up under “car accident, canoe” – unless you include the canoe that had been converted to a car
http://www.kcra.com/news/cal-fire-8-injured-at-nevada-city-soap-box-derby/-/11797728/20844076/-/cge1kg/-/index.html
Also interesting that both these cases involve women. It could be random chance, or it could be that women have a harder time getting the boat secure. Not sure what to do with that observation.
See thread title
"What would you do?" Meaning, “if you believed bow and stern tiedowns were necessary and you were with a person who didn’t use them?”
Attempts to control forum responses are never successful. Whether your OP purpose is clear or not, people respond as they wish.
im saying
Your op is misguided, because you are making a lazy blanket statement that is exclusive of actual transport safety.
Ryan L.