nice
as usual.
thanks Sing. es perfecto
steve
Bullshit to both.
– Last Updated: Jan-05-08 12:10 PM EST –
Sorry I don't believe you. Folks I know who were in real firefights in war never say a peep about their experiences. I think you are a poser.
If you had done any serious whitewater or surf kayaking you would not be asking the lame question.
nope, very different.
What Derrick is calling a storm roll is a deep water extended c-to-c of sorts. The Greenland storm roll is a forward starting to forward finishing low brace roll done either in a sweeping or bracing motion. I prefer to do this roll with standard hand positioning although it works well extended.
Here’s a couple video clips of Greg Stamer doing the storm roll… http://www.qajaqusa.org/common_images/gp_storm2.mpg
http://www.qajaqusa.org/common_images/gp_storm_front.mpg
And I also have a couple storm roll clips on my website as well…
http://www.rollingclinic.com/videos.html
Well… Not Always True…
– Last Updated: Jan-05-08 12:54 PM EST –
I have talked to Vietnam veterans about some of their experiences (My cousin was one). I have talked to a couple of folks from first gulf war, including a friend (who still struggles a bit with PTSD). For some, talking about it is about acknowledging that one is not necessarily insane or immoral but that one went through and survived an "insane" situation.
Most folks who encountered a life threatening situation, or has experienced physical conflict, will likely experience some range of PTS (e.g. reliving, second guessing the "what ifs", nightmares and guilt). Some of the studies of young kids and youth in Boston living high violent crime areas show many have some level of PTS.
sing
Agree … but not my sense here.
As it works out the person who spent the most time working with me on my combat roll was a marine who served in the Gulf War.
He does not seem to have any issue with the nomenclature.
I think if anyone had been in a real beatdown with all their air gone they would not bother asking.
some people buy into the nomenclature
even Marines. It might be that they don’t care about it. Or, it could mean they buy into all of the OO-RAH BS they were fed in boot camp and never quiet got over that bit of brainwashing.
Humans are incredibly complex - making broad statements about how people should react is just silly. Simply because one, two, or a group of people react one way does not mean everyone will react the same way.
I completely agree that an effective roll happens when you least expect it and when everything is stacked against a successful roll. I prefer to the think of the state of mind and ‘Zen like’. When you say the word combat people think of all kinds of aggressive behavior, tension, and conflict. These things tend to be counter productive to rolling, so creating that mental image can be negative. Creating a relaxed state of mind is probably very good for increasing the success of a roll.
Back deck/ layback
– Last Updated: Jan-05-08 3:56 PM EST –
Yes I really mean a layback roll. Used the back deck term because it had already been introduced higher up and because I have heard long boat folks use it as a generic term for any roll that finishes leaning back.
I am aware of the true back deck roll as used by WW folks and how it works, even expect to be using it if I find I can do Ok with playboating this coming season. But I figured that was a pretty narrow crowd who would have that association. Wrong I guess.
Different rolls for different kayaks
Whatever kayak you’re in - and whatever conditions you paddle - will greatly influence your opinion of various techniques, your comfort and confidence levels with them, and so what rolls are your “favorite” rolls.
Higher decks and/or wider beams (relative to paddler size) seem to force more speed oriented techniques, and often this means more WW style techniques with “c” finishes" (even if with some layback ala EJ), stronger hip snaps, and less forgiving timing - at least at first until a someone can mix it up a bit by adding more varied techniques like back deck, reverse sweep, etc.
Doing a sweep roll - but with with the upright finish shown in “The Kayak Roll” vs. a Greenland style layback finish can works better with kayaks with high rear decks and/or seat close to rear edge of coaming - like my QCC (which I moved modified to help this a bit - but it’s still only a partial layback and I can only do a full layback in that kayak as a slow exaggerated butt of the seat posture. Even a partial layback is easier than the upright finish - but they’re pretty close - and I’ll go anywhere inbetween at time).
In my SOF, I can comfortably lay on the back deck and relax there. Very hard to imagine an easier or more reliable than the Greenland standard roll with layback finish in a boat that allows a comfortable full layback. The freedom of movement the lower rear deck allows really lets you slow down, pause anywhere mid roll, and resume too. Being able to layback easily/comfortably makes aft finish rolls easier and more reliable. Very forgiving of timing and no clear/strong snap is required on some.
Naturally the more common WW techniques suit WW kayaks and more basic Greenland techniques suit Greenland kayaks - but when it comes to commercial sea kayaks it gets murkier. They all fall somewhere in between as far as cockpits go - so almost anything CAN work - but somethings will be easier/more reliable than others.
For beginners, picking a first technique to learn that suits them and their kayak vs one less suited can be the difference between a short session to success or a long and frustrating road to marginality. After that - it’s all fun to play with.
For me, I really need to work on some forward finishing stuff next. Being able to pop up moving in either direction makes sense in the same way as being able to come up on either side.
GI Joe
so Mr. Joe,
that’s just the point.
while your mind is fighting with “all kinds of aggressive behavior, tension, and conflict” (this is what happens when you flip ‘in conditions’)you need to focus and pull off a great roll…combat cool.
steve
Re-enter and roll
So far I have only used the re-enter and roll as fun past time on hot day’s when I want to cool off. I am not sure what the name is for this technique, yet my most enjoyable re-enter and roll technique for me is after a wet exit I duck my head under an inverted kayak putting my head facing the back band and grabbing the cockpit rim with both hands, yet holding the paddle at the rim and containing the paddle in one hand. From there I take a breath from inside the cockpit and do an inverted summersault putting my squirming feet into the cockpit and trying to get a good solid thigh brace hold. Now it’s time to set up for a sweep roll, or for me a more reliable sculling sweep recovery.
I think I like this roll for a few reasons, no full roll momentum is involved, and there is a bit of awkwardness in slipping into the cockpit and then get a good thigh hold for control of the recovery move.
Okay, granted I’m not doing this in a river strainer or even in white cap conditions as of yet. I’m just having fun with it when I can.
if you were referring to me
my mind doesn’t fill with tension, conflict, and certainly not aggressive behavior when I capsize and need to roll. I relax and roll.
Other than (in my opinion) being nothing like combat the term combat roll itself can create tension and anxiety in people. While the term relaxed roll, or Zen-like roll, does not. Therefore I prefer to have people work on a ‘relaxed’ roll to use when everything goes to shit.