It is complicated but you can find out for yourself what works best!
As it is, I’m experimenting with high vs. low angle paddling in a rudder dependent kayak with the rudder up.
So far with a very low angle my paddle seems quite short and speed a bit lower probably because there is a bit more yaw, especially at the stern.
With a very high angle my paddle is too long and speed a bit higher but difficult to sustain.
In between, with the right technique, I can paddle quite nice straight forward and don’t even need a rudder unless there is too much weathervaning cause by a side wind.
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@kanoniem, agree. Everybody has a differnt body type. Some can sprint, others have endurance. I’ve followed post where kayakers complain about bad shoulders but continue to use high angle and big blades. Hey, keep on doing it and good luck to you. If someone can’t figure out how to paddle low angle without waddling like a duck or using a rudder, then stick to what works. I have no time to fight “city hall”, and I don’t care how anyone paddles.
If you have shoulder issues, experiment. As I said, "you won’t convince me that the boat will waddle like a duck if you paddle low angle - figure out cadence, edging, and paddle technique. If wing paders can manage it, low angle paddlers can figure it out. My advice is stop reading books and figure it out.
@Jyak, I haven’t used a wing paddle (yet), as I was advised it wouln’t fit my paddling style. But from what I understand about it, a wing paddle moves outward because of its blade shape and pulling inward is not the right technique then.
Also paddling with a wing paddle works best with quite high angle paddling strokes, as I have been told, and I am not inclined to paddle that way for more than a few strokes to catch a wave in the surf for instance.
Your observation re using a too-long paddle with a high angle stroke is really interesting!
With a low-angle stroke, more rotational force is created as the horizontal distance from the keel line to the blade increases. That causes the left/right wag others have mentioned.
With high angle stroke, the distance from the keel line to the blade will also increase, but the distance is more vertical as a longer paddle reaches deeper into the water. It follows (I think) that a too-long paddle with a high-angle stroke will create a vertical rotational force that forces the bow up a little bit with each stroke (rather than left or right as with horizontal rotational force), and that could be one reason you found it difficult to sustain a high angle stroke with a too-long paddle.
Fascinating stuff. Always more to learn and try.
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I am too much of a newbee to give a definitive answer, but I have a 16.5 foot Perception Sea Lion and a 17’ 3" Necky Chatham and I paddle them both over 20 miles in a day with no problems at all. And I have never found that either of them is hard to turn. Not as easy as my Pyranha White Water Kayak of course, but not hard. If I put either on a good edge (water lapping my skirt) I can turn either one 180 degrees in 3 strokes.
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The stroke that would not cause yaw would be right in line with the keel of the boat, but you would need a slot done the middle of the boat to do that. Any stroke that is to the side of the keel will cause yaw. The further the stroke from the keel the more yaw.
So, all our paddle strokes will cause yaw. Now how can you reduce the yaw when you paddle one way is a stroke that is closer to the center line of the boat, but that isn’t the only way. Another way is to not allow the paddle to travel as far while in the water (shorter stroke). Another is to increase the cadence of the strokes which decreases the time the yaw has to affect the bow going off center. Another way is by reducing the rocker of the boat and to lengthen the hull.
If your cadence is high, and you are only leaving the blade in the water until it is perpendicular to the center line of the boat then you will minimize the amount of yaw while paddling. High and low angle strokes are both valid ways to paddle. It all depends on your paddling priorities, and the design of the boat you paddle.
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I dont want to blow your mind, but I use a 250 cm paddle. Up to this year, I used a range to stay on track. It kept me close to the course, but it required contant adjustment and it showed up on GPS. This season I focused on edging, high cadence, limiting the range of the reach and stroke. Rather than using the range to stay on course, I now use the range to verify that I haven’t varied. Instead of the GPS showing I wandered, it shows straight. 12 years later at 72 yrs old with a busted up rotator cuff, I’m within .16 mph avg speed of my best speeds from when I was at my peak.
You can quote physics books, paddle or kayak truisms, racing wisdom, or insist that despite my perceptions, my boat waddles like a baby duckling. For some reason, I cover the same distance in the same boat with the same paddle and I’m approaching what I could do 12 years ago. Hey, who knows, maybe the waddling breaks the surface tension. On the other side, maybe I’m physically stronger now at 72 yrs old and shoulders are over rated (back then I was using a higher angle technique) or maybe I just made it up - you’ll not convince me otherwise.
Well if you want to minimize yaw you might try something around 100 cm. Then you can get a proper vertical paddle stroke and even go past vertical to get the paddle forces closer to the keel line, or develop a subtle c-stroke that lets you drive the boat straight or even turn towards the paddle (inside turn). The 2 paddles I use in my Rapidfire pack canoe are around 46 inches (about 115 cm).
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You have a long straight hull which resists yaw. You are leaving the paddle in the water for a short time and increased the cadence. You are edging when you need to keep on course. These are all things that will reduce the yaw. I suspect that is why you don’t need to use the range.
One thing that I commonly see with long paddles is letting the stroke continue past the hips. Think Sweep Stroke which is used to turn the bow. Sounds to me you are doing things right.
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You are getting it castoff.
I cant make a direct comparison, and it isn’t the same technique, but I’ve adapted some aspects of the wing paddle technique. Once I figure ot out, I might actually try a wing.
LOL, that is one of the advantages of a single blade paddle. I do just that at times. Though how many times have you watched people paddle a canoe with one hand in the boat rather than both hands vertically over each other. They wonder why they have a hard time going straight.
I thought about my canoeing when I posted about the slot down the center of the boat. Those paddles look great! Although I am partial to wood paddles with my canoes.
I use a 205cm wing, a 210 Greenland, and a 210 Werner Cyprus. I have a 240 Werner Camano as well as various canoe paddles for my canoes. I use the wing and the Greenland for most of my kayaking, and a 60" Grey Owl cherry Guide and a 50" Fox Worx FFG bent shaft for most of my canoeing.
i also have a PB Rapidfire that I had removed the drop-in set of low seat options and asked Joe (the boat manufacturer) to provide me with a much higher seat, like the one he has in his RF. With it I use one of my straight carbon paddles from 48" to 51", depending on how I want to go that day, mostly how I go for training and conditioning. I also like to use straight wood paddles when easy recreationally paddling. I paddle a canoe, I do not use a double blade paddle with my Rf canoe.
One of the first things a canoe paddler learns for application of power and for going as straight as possible is what is called “stacked hands” to maintain a vertical shaft powered as close to the canoe midline as possible. Accomplished skill with a variety of strokes allows precise straight directional control and maneuverability, the joy of which is the main reason why I canoe and I do not kayak. It is normal and easy to keep the canoe straight line bow yaw to not more than 5 degrees with power at each stroke.
Unless I am racing with a team in C2 or larger canoes, whenever I non-race paddle solo in any canoe, I tend to stay paddling on the same side for many minutes (commonly up to 20 or more minutes), and only switch sides when water or wind conditions dictate, or switch for evenness of muscle tone.
Learn proper to-the-hip J, Pitch, C, Box/Indian, and many other linked strokes to make the canoe track and do as you command with hardly any thought.
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One thing that I commonly see with long paddles is letting the stroke continue past the hips.
I do it that way.
I have no one here that I can learn from because of distance and expense, so I learn what I can from on-line lessons and going to the lake to practice what I am taught. I use GL and Alaskan paddles and both are supposed to be used to give the power of the strokes from just in front of the hip all the way back to the rear of the kayak. My Aleut paddle is over 9 feet long and I use it in a low angle type of stroke, yet I see very little yaw of the bow of my kayaks when I am paddling. I am guessing, but I think some of the reason may be the angle of the blades as they go through the radius of the stroke . GL and Aleut paddles are canted forward on the upper edges to prevent fluttering.
I had an 8 foot Euro-type paddle (Broke it last march) and if I used it in a low angle I could see the tip of the bow go side to side about 2.5 to 3 inches on every stroke, but with the GL and Alaskan paddle I see almost none. If at all, it’s about 3/4 of an inch side to side.
The duration of the stroke (or said another way, the size of the arc in the water) is WAY longer with the Aleut paddle then it is with the euro blade. In fact it’s even longer then it is with my GL paddle, which is 8 feet overall.
Jyak and I have talked about the dynamics of paddles and their use, in writing and also on the phone many times and I have learned a lot of good principals and theory from him, but I can’t prove them myself because I lack the opportunity to try them.
The cost of such paddles is WAY too high to buy each one just to try it, and living in Wyoming there are not a lot of other kayakers who own such paddles (exactly zero that I know of) for me to try either. So I have to learn 1st hand only with what I can make myself. Hence my focus on GL and Alaskan paddles.
My euro types have all been cheap ones I have picked up with the used kayaks I have bought except one, which was an AquaBound fiberglass paddle. It was nice, but too short and had small blades so it was easy to use, but didn’t move my kayaks very fast and was not as good for bracing or rolling. It was under 7 feet long, so it was the shortest paddle I ever used. I gave it to a friend and he used it a few times, but now he has it as a spare on his deck and had me make him a GL paddle too.
After I finish my back-log and become retired (semi-retired anyway) I hope to go to the Great Lakes area or maybe even the coast to some symposiums and get to try all the goodies I read about. But for now I am trapped by distance and prevented by expense from being able to learn 1st hand about such things.
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When I am in my canoe, I think I love them the best. When I am in my sea kayak, I think I love them the best. When I am in my sailboat, I think I love them the best. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses which I find wonderfully fascinating. It’s a function of learning the control and the moving in a form of harmony with the water that thrills me.
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Regarding paddle length, the correct length regardless of paddling style is that you have the whole blade, not more or less, fully in the water for the majority of the stroke without hitting the side of the boat. Any more or less leads to a less efficient paddle stroke.
The path that a wing paddle follows is a result of the paddle design combined with a nearly vertical high angle style and relying almost entirely on torso rotation when paddled correctly. I’ve found that very few people using a wing paddle recreationally strictly adhere to the proper technique, although even then a wing paddle tends to be a bit more efficient than a Euro or Greenland paddle.
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Helpful feedback, thanks. Good to have feedback from folks that are closer to my level (new, but serious about skills development). It’s weird being short in experience by time but ahead of so many in my area in skills.
The question for me then is, if the bit more efficiency of the wing paddle weighs up against its disadavantages for maneuvering and bracing, which I need for my kind of paddling in wind and waves?
I use a wing paddle virtually all the time. My focus has always been speed and distance. I have become so accustomed to a wing paddle, that when I use a different paddle, it’s just not the same
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