After the earlier mention of wing paddle I did some searching on YouTube. I found reviews and technique videos but couldn’t find the video I wanted which is something that explains what it is and what the advantages and disadvantages of it are.
Low angle makes the boat waddle. No way to prevent it unless using high angle. Now I understand.
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Now I understand why baby ducks always followed my boat. They thought it was a mommy duck.
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The best explanation I have found is that you push water past the hull with flat paddles; you pull the boat forward with a wing paddle.
Wing paddles are meant for skinny boats because of the twist in the blade. That twist causes them to push away from the boat as they travel. It makes it easier to prep for the next stroke, if the boat is right for the paddle.
Proper wing paddle usage is about cadence, not power.
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I think a regular Euro paddle pulls the boat forward also. My paddle doesn’t slip much as the boat goes forward.
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Indeed with all paddle blades one pulls the boat forward.
Too simply said, it is the resistance against the movement of the blade through the water (based on velocity and blade shape) that creates the possibility to pull yourself forward and with that your boat.
The wing paddle may (also) use a different kind of resistance to pull yourself forward than a flat blade.
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Control freak!
The Greenland Paddle vs the Euro Paddle is a bit more complicated than what most people think. If using a Greenland Paddle with a canted stroke and rotating incorporating the stab the salmon method, the water doesn’t react to the width that you see when looking at the paddle. The water travels at an angle across the paddle face and thus sees that width. So the water thinks the paddle is wider than what you think. The canted stroke also doesn’t just work in a simple horizontal plane. It works so that the paddle / water interaction wants to rotate the kayak . {This is why you don’t see much yaw} So rather than create yaw it creates rotational force. The rotational force it where you drive against to get purchase. {this is why when first teaching someone how to use a Greenland Paddle and a canted stroke you need to start slow or it will tip you}That combined with the stroke building the amount of paddle slid further in the water changes the amount of force during the stroke such that as the big muscles of the back are in a better position to actually be able to work their best {rather than at the catch when the big muscles are extended beyond their most shock absorbing position. This eases the shock at catch and maximizes the softness on the big back muscles but allows them to still do their work without shock. It also reduces shock on the shoulder joints with a soft catch. I could go on…But I hope what I wrote is understandable. {I don’t want to write a thesis.}
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I suspect somehow that using a Greenland Paddle with the “canted” stroke you make a so-called pitch stroke as is used with canoeing to go straight?
I can replicate this with my long single blade paddle in my kayak, but haven’t had a chance yet to experience this with a real Greenland Paddle.
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Summary of helpful info
(commenting for future folks that see thread and don’t want to sort through all the previous replies)
-What length boat would you consider ideal for my stated goals?
My conclusion is I should stick to the 14’-16’ range, but longer would also work well with enough rocker
-What boats would you recommend? The following boats were mentioned as options to consider
kayaks:
Stratos 14.5
P&H Delphin
Artisan Millennium (18’+ speedster)
Westside Wave Excel (19’ race)
Tiderace Xcite
Current Design Vision
NDK Romany Surf
Stellar S14 or S15
Eddyline Sitka or Fathom
Venture Easky
Necky Chatham
canoes:
Placid Boatworks Rapidfire
Wenonah Voayager
Savage River Blackwater
Placid Boatworks Shadow
- What have I not mentioned that I should consider?
There’s a ton of personal preference I need to get out on the water more in different boats to figure out my style. My preference of hull shape, smooth bottom displacement vs defined keel with hard chines and my preference of skeg over rudder were affirmed as good starting point. While daydreaming of the next boat I need to focus on getting out in my existing boats as much as possible to develop desired conditioning and technique. If I enter a race I should consider a wing paddle.
Roym, that was a good post. I had to read it 2 times to re-think what you were trying to convey, but I got it.
When I first started using a GL paddle I did feel it’s tendency to tip the hull toward the stroke, but I was surprised how fast I learned to compensate. My 1st GL paddle I made was too small. Too short and with too long a loom, so that resulted in blades that were too short. It was a mistake, but was a perfect training paddle for me. Because it was not very aggressive I was able to feel the difference in the type of action it gave and yet still have good control over it. The small baldes didn’t give me more then about 1/2 the speed of my big Euro paddle, so after about 1 month I made a “standard sized” GL. That next one was full size to the drawing I got, and the one after that was a bit wider then most GL paddles and it’s the one I have come to love the most. My interest was peaked in old style paddles so I then made a few Aleut paddles and have come to like them very much. They are not a good choice for shallows, but in deep water I find they are easy to use. I was caught in a storm on the lake once that drove up some very large waves and chop, but I found that 9+ foot long paddle made control and bracing very easy.
I had not considered the axial rotation of the hull as a counter to the yaw I got with my big Euro paddle. After reading your explanation and thinking back to how it was when I started out, it makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks so much.
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The hulls you listed are at extremely different ends of kayaking .
You need to think of your main usage, then your other task it may have to perform. Westside 19’ race hull to a Eddyline Sitka is a big shift.
Budget is?
New or used I forgot if you said one?
20-30 miles definitely 17’+. Current Designs Solstice but it has a rudder. Tons of 17’ boats are good. What’s available in your area if you want used. New hull may be a wait of many months unless the market has changed.
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Josh, how will you sort that list?
Be like so many of us; keep buying and selling until you have the one. Or two, three, four …
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Nice 
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Hey Josh, I like your summary.
It strikes me that you list basically the 4 fastest non-race canoes made and I’ll just comment that you don’t need the absolute fastest to meet your goals. So just food for thought. I have several 15 foot solo canoes. Rapidfire is fastest. If I was cruising on flatwater at a “cover distance” (solid medium effort) pace I might be going 4.5 mph in Rapidfire compared to 4 mph in the others. So think about how important 4.5 vs 4 mph is to you. On one hand it’s “huge” since after only 2 hours the faster boat is a mile ahead. On the other hand even the slower boats would cover 20-32 miles during your 5-8 hours of paddling (and more if you are paddling with the current). Of my 15 footers my Rapidfire is the only one that hasn’t done 20 miles since my butt hurts after 2 hours sitting but I can kneel comfortably for 4-6 hours pretty easily in the other boats. I’m about the same size as you and one canoe I’d consider for myself is the Northstar Trillium and even though it’s only 14’6" it is wickedly quick/fast/effortless in the real world.
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The Placidboat Rapidfire is a regular contender in the “Solo Recreational” race class during the annual Adirondack 90-mile Canoe Classic. It is a 3-day staged race, with 35 miles on the first day, 30 miles on the second day, and 25 miles on the third day. Each day has some portages, totaling five miles of portages overall in the race. I have paddled that race 25 times in a variety of canoes, including several times in my Rapidfire. I have a custom higher than standard seat installed in my RF, the high seat elevation and tilt making it much easier on my butt seated than with the normal stock low floor mounted molded seat. Some paddlers will do that race in the floor mounted foam seat of a 10.5’ Hornbeck canoe.
Other than on the official race weekend, some of us like to paddle what we call the “Cannonball-90” in unofficial non-race mode on the original older traditional 90 mile route, with the goal to be completed all within a single 24 hour day. That route includes a total of 10 miles of portages between waterways. It typically takes anywhere from about 14 to 19 hours, depending on canoe, weather, and paddler(s). I’ve paddled that event a dozen times, half of those in my Rapidfire, always using a single blade canoe paddle.
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That post was TLDR for those that saw the topic but didn’t want to wade through the previous 100ish comments. I’ll narrow down from that list. Buying used. My budget is small and not a lot of touring boats are sold in my area so it looks like I’ll end up buying and selling a few before I find my long distance river boat.
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List was what all the other commenters have recommended. I haven’t had a chance to research all the suggestions yet. I did enjoy hearing everyone’s thoughts and learning about a lot of models I hadn’t heard of before. Thanks for extra info on the canoes.
Patience and buy once. You need not spend even a thousand for a real near new hull…
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